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      05-29-2013, 05:44 AM   #1283
GoingTooFast
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Drives: fat cars are still boats
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: compensating a fat car with horsepower is like giving an alcoholic cocaine to sober him up.

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This guy owns a Honda S2000 CR and claims the Toyobaru is faster than his S2000 with equal modds. So, nothing to be surprised about there. (You can read it here: http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/9701.../page__st__125)

However, what I would like to call your attention to which is just one more reason that leads me to insist on the CRUCIAL importance of having a diesel lightweight true sports car - the Toyobaru could very well be that car with a boxer diesel engine - is how the Toyobaru's engine, 13-years younger and equipped with Toyota latest D-4s direct fuel injection technology (explained in the vid below), which is the industry trend for modern petrol engines (except for the port injector), «runs through more gas than the S2k on the track. About 60-70% more» based on his observations. Mind you, we are talking about stock engines and similar car weights here!!!

This is a huge, HUGE difference and just proves my point... when you drive hard like you suppose to with a true driver's car NOTHING CAN BEAT A DIESEL engine AND in terms of fuel-efficiency even a modern-day petrol engine can perform considerably worse than a 13-years older, 40 hp more powerful, slightly bigger (2157cc or 132 cu in) and 8200 rpm capable engine when they are both revved hard.

Only when cruising and street driving you can get the direct petrol injection fuel-efficiency advantage over past petrol engines while with a diesel engine not only you get even a greater advantage on such conditions but also in EVERY way possible.


Quote:
Here's my experience in my (heavy) s2k vs the CSG BRZ. I'd put myself at a solid 5 out of 10 for driver skill. I'm neither the fastest nor slowest driver around, just a junkie with a lot to learn.

S2k setup:
08 S2000 CR
Lightweight battery (-18 lbs)
Ti exhaust (-55 lbs)
Tein SRC (CSG spec)
Misc brake pads (Typically either XP12 or Club Racers, but I'll use whatever is around)
255/40/17 RS3 on 17x8.5 (I really REALLY wish my rims were wider...)
Brake ducting
ACT clutch and 8lb flywheel.
Recaro SPG (driver's side only)
Total weight with me in the car and 1/4 tank is about 2920 lbs.

CSG BRZ setup:
2013 BRZ Premium
225/45/17 RS3 on 17x8 RPF1
Tein SRCs (Custom valving is in the works... but not on the car yet)
Essex AP Racing BBK
Berk axleback prototype
Total weight with me in the car: 2850 (2770 base - 5 rpf1 - 45 quarter tank - 10 SRCS - 20 BBK + 160 driver)

Consumable use rates:
Tires: ~6 track days to the cord on the S2k, ~4 track days to the cord on the BRZ. The BRZ uses tires more efficiently, and also wears the front/rear almost perfectly evenly (with the SRCs). The S2k uses rear tire much faster, and the 6 days is with constant rotation of the tires to even out the wear. Both cars are driven with maximum driving time in mind, rather than absolute fastest lap times; I'm on a really right budget, and CSG is probably 1/100th the size of Evasive. A day is typically 4 or 5 sessions, with an average of 2 out/in laps, 2 "cooldown" laps, and 2 "hot" laps. CA tracks are REALLY harsh on tire wear (except Laguna, Infineon, and Chuckwalla).

The BRZ heats up tires much faster, although this is probably the result of more efficient (therefore faster) warmup laps, and a smaller tire holding a similar amount of weight.

I'm pretty convinced that a larger front sway would make my s2k use tires more efficiently, but I don't know how much more front sway, so I haven't done any experimenting yet (and I don't have the funds to do so...). Alternatively I could use stiffer front springs, but I'd rather not mess with my damper settings since they're exactly how they should be... (every KW owner that rides in my car agrees that the ride quality is SIGNIFICANTLY better... working on a CSG spec SRC to achieve the same with the FRS/BRZ).

Brakes:
XP12 and Club Racers Fronts typically last me about 4 days on the s2k. I can probably run a few sessions on what's left, but I'd rather change before to prevent having to do it at the track. Rears last 2-3x longer than fronts; fronts have 2.5" brake ducting. Auto Club Speedway (ACS) and Laguna Seca will eat over 1/2 a set of pads in 4 sessions; both have HUGE braking zones. You already know my brake rotor woes with the S2k, but I tend to go through rotors slower with Club Racers and DTCs, since they have less surface heat.

The BRZ with stock calipers and XP10 looks to use brakes much slower. ACS used up about 40% of a set of fronts over ~60 laps, which is about 2x as many laps as a normal track day; we were driving at 86Fest, taking passengers and potential sponsors all day. The remaining 50% were used up over the course of 4 other track days. No ducting on the BRZ. Zero issues with rotor cracking over that set of XP10; we barely started getting microfractures, and they were so minimal that I wasn't concerned. The rotor would get too thin before cracking. Pads made no noise, as with properly bedded Carbotech pads on the S2k. Comparable results with a set of Project Mu Max900i. I got just a hint of fade at ACS with the XP10 if I did more than 3 laps back to back, whereas the Max900i had no fade even at the 5 lap mark; I would expect XP12 to not fade for 5 laps too.

The BRZ with the Essex "Sprint" kit slowed down brake wear tremendously. I'm in the process of finalizing my review for the kit. I didn't like the C300 that came with the kit (glazed em), and went straight to XP12. Currently at about 6 track days worth of driving with mixed tires (some r-comp, some RS3) and mixed tracks, and still have around 70% pad life left. Still no ducts, although we're planning on eventually getting some; it just isn't a priority at the moment compared to other product development and testing.

Gas:
The BRZ runs through more gas than the S2k on the track. About 60-70% more, based on my observations. Why? I don't know. This is only at hot lap pace though. For stuff like lead-follow, cruising, and street driving, the BRZ's MPG is better than the s2k. ~27mpg mixed vs ~22 mpg mixed. Sticky tires aren't good for MPG


Maintenance:
We run similar maintenance schedules on the BRZ to my S2k. S2k sees an oil, diff, and trans fluid change every 10k miles (yes, you read that right!). I also do a valve adjustment and replace the spark plugs every 10k. Rear wheel bearings seem to need replacement once a year; I do both as soon as I hear one; I've always caught it early enough that the hub isn't damaged. I don't run a oil-to-air oil cooler, just the factory oil-to-water. UOA suggests that all the fluids can go longer and don't experience any breakdown.

BRZ long term maintenance is unknown. However, we saw no evidence of abnormal wear per UOA with a 7500 mile interval on the engine oil. Diff and trans were changed at about 10k, also with no signs of abnormal wear. We haven't pulled plugs or done any extra maintenance, as we have nothing that changes the output of the engine.

Motul fluids all around (300V, Gear 300, Gear 300 LS).

Car Prep:
The S2k needs camber modifiers front/rear with stock suspension; front only with coilovers. Geometry correction is nice, but not necessary with lowering. Basically, all you need to efficiently run a s2k is a front camber modifier, pads, fluids, and ducting.

The BRZ only has toe adjustment f/r. You'll need camber plates in the front for caster/camber (crash bolts are a band-aid fix that won't be enough for serious tracking), and camber arms in the rear (unless you're okay with adjusting camber via height, which was good enough for us). Brake pads, fluids are requisite as usual. Duction is nice, but optional.

Conclusion:
Tire cost on the BRZ is lower, but you go through them faster. BRZ needs mods to keep up with the S2k, so initial investment is higher (although you can wait for the mods...). Maintenance, hopefully, is roughly the same.

The BRZ/FRS requires a different driving style from the S2k, but should be a very easy transition. While both cars are "fast in fast out" type cars, the BRZ rewards braking earlier more, since you can't just crank the steering anytime you want the car to turn as you can with a square tire s2k. The terminal cornering speed of the BRZ is higher than the S2k, stock for stock. Aero vs aero is TBD... putting a full voltex s2k against a APR BRZ wouldn't be fair now. I think. Andrew Brilliant has been toying with aero on a BRZ model


Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-29-2013 at 10:58 AM..
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