[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by greekcs

I wait until the low oil pressure light turns on to schedule my oil change.

I wait for the "Change Engine Light" to come on before I change the engine. Why bother changing oil when you can just change your engine? A new engine would come with oil anyways.

[greekcs]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I wait for the "Change Engine Light" to come on before I change the engine. Why bother changing oil when you can just change your engine? A new engine would come with oil anyways.

So true. I keep telling myself "im not going to let a little light in the dash control my life."

[adhrp]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed.

Are you nuts?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by greekcs

So true. I keep telling myself "im not going to let a little light in the dash control my life."

My other recommendation is that the OP not tighten the oil drain plug all the way. If you leave it a bit loose, you'll be able to top off the engine oil every day. This ensures that the oil is always fresh.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

I think you are wasting time and money.

[Buckeyes]

Completely wasting your time and money but I'm sure BMW will have no problem taking the cash. Then they will take it for a "test" drive and beat the shit outta it because they know how anal you are about your car.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I think you are wasting time and money.

So why do the M cars get this? I still think an oil change is prudent this early and then run the recommended cycles

[Mauricio Palacios. MD]

Originally Posted by juan2mini

I am taking my 435i into the dealer tomorrow for a service @ 1,200 mile. I am getting an oil change, gearbox & differential fluids changed. I have owned many BMW's & have always gotten this service after 1,200 mile. I know BMW's first service is at 10k. I also know the fluids/oils used today are better than they were in my 1970 1600. But aren't there just as many metal filings, after break-in, today as pre-BMW maintenance? Am I wasting my money? Am I alone in paying for this extra service in the unfounded belief I am helping to extend the live of my engine & transmission?

Hello. I'm doing an engine oil change every 5000 km (~3,100 mi) and a differential oil change, every 30,000 km (~18,640 mi). I agree with you, specially in this kind of engines (turbocharged) because it's important for the turbo to have fresh and clean oil. $100 for an engine oil service, sounds fair for me. I use to own my cars for long time periods. Remember Juan, for turbocharged engines is very important to warm up before and cool down after a hard driving session (I take care of that all the time) to avoid oil carbonization. For the ZF 8 automatic gearbox, I'll research with ZF the recommended service intervals and will perform the service sooner, probably at 60,000 km (~37,200 mi) -the same that VAG recommends for it's DSG. Good night.

[skw]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

So why do the M cars get this? I still think an oil change is prudent this early and then run the recommended cycles

I think there's a balance between the extremely short 3k interval and the extremely long 15k interval. My take on this is that for the x20 & x35 engines, doing a 1200 mile service is unnecessary. The factory fill oil is not the same oil that you're using off the shelf. It's formulated and has additives designed specifically for the 1st x number of miles of an engines life which also aid in the break-in process and needs to be run for a longer period. I was once told that dumping this factory fill too early would not be a good thing. The M engines are a different story and I would be inclined to believe that the factory fill in those motors is designed to be dumped at 1200 miles.

Originally Posted by Mauricio Palacios. MD

Hello. I'm doing an engine oil change every 5000 km (~3,100 mi) and a differential oil change, every 30,000 km (~18,640 mi). I agree with you, specially in this kind of engines (turbocharged) because it's important for the turbo to have fresh and clean oil. $100 for an engine oil service, sound fair for me. I use to own my cars for long time periods. Remember Juan, for turbocharged engines is very important to warm up before and cool down after a hard driving session (I take care of that all the time) to avoid oil carbonization. For the ZF 8 automatic gearbox, I'll research with ZF the recommended service intervals and will perform the service sooner, probably at 60,000 km (~37,200 mi) -the same that VAG recommends for it's DSG. Good night.

3,100 miles and w/ a full synthetic oil, while may produce a peace of mind, is absolutely unnecessary, even in a turbo charged engine. Waste of money and resources. The minimum I would go is 5,000 miles. If keeping the car long term, sending samples for oil analysis would be your best bet. You can then find your sweet spot (5k, 7.5k, 10k...) for when the oil you're using is starting to breakdown and lose it's lubricating properties. It can also be an early alert to engine problems as the reports will also show abnormal amounts of various minerals present in the oil.

When I had my e39 528i (M52 engine?) and Nissan Xterra V6, I ran Amsoil synthetic oil and sent samples to Blackstone Labs at each oil change. I did it in 5k intervals just because it was easier to remember but the reports always came back saying the oil had plenty of life left. At a bit over 70k miles, a sample from the Nissan came back showing abnormal engine wear. The next report after that showed it even more. Needless to say, that car soon got traded in.

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by stormlv

I can imagine a situation where the oil composition changed such it actually improved after use.
An analogy would be a wine. A fresh wine is good. Aged wine is even better. 200 year old wine ... well I wouldn't really want to try it.
Even the engine itself follows such a trend in performance increase after a bit of wear. A 0km engine will produce less power than one which went through the break in period. A 200.000 mile engine is also going to perform worse than one just after the break-in.

First, not shooting the messenger.


The trouble with that analogy is that wine, and motor oil are completely different in every way and can no way be related to draw a parallel. Wine is by definition fermented, this requires long periods of time. Therefore you will have that bell curve. Oil is a wear item and is damaged by use, therefore any use will reduce it's lifespan.

We can not change the laws of physics.

Again, it's a simple logic puzzle that proves the theory wrong. If changing the oil at 3k or 5k is "detrimental" because the existing oil with mileage on it is "better" than the fresh oil from the store.......then why don't manufacture's sell us oil that has been run for 3k or 5k miles already?

The only partially logical reasoning for extended change intervals is actually never even expressed. From an environmental standpoint longer oil changes means less impact from collecting, recycling, and storing old oil. Hoever, each individual car needs to be addressed specific to it's use and conditions; there is no one right answer for every car. For a commute car that spends most of it's time on the highway at speed (not in traffic jams) and isn't revved high or subjected to high heat or dirty areas (farmland), extended oil changes make perfect sense. The synthetic is more than able to retain proper lubrication tolerances. yes, after extended mileage it will not be as good as fresh, non dirty worn oil, but the difference will be minimal and within specs.

However, for cars that are driven by enthusiasts (or even just people who like to beat on their cars LOL), high revs, spirited driving, track days, lots of stop and go traffic where temps will be higher, ect, ect the oil will be subjected to more wear and will become saturated with more contaminates. In these cases more frequent changes should be done.

Using "Well, I change my oil every 12k and car has been fine for 100k miles" as a basis is foolish. By that logic we should all smoke a cigar everyday and eat nothing but steak just because people live to 110 doing it.

Just as with people, you will not get a catastrophic failure directly related back to oil change interval. Well, unless you go 60k without a change LOL. What proper oil changes do is address the risk factor. People don't get diabetes because they are fat....they get it because they have that risk factor in the DNA from their ancestors. People don't get high blood pressure because they smoke and drink......they get it because it's in their DNA, smoking and drinking just makes it more likely to occur. Engines don't explode because of dirty oil, they do it because of microscopic imperfections, missed tolerances, and conditions they are used and abused under.....dirty oil just makes those issues more likely.

Personally......I find it funny that people buy $40k+ cars and then waffle and argue about what, in reality, amounts to an extra $100 a year in maintenance. If that $100 a year is that big of an issue, maybe buying an expensive performance car was a bad idea.......just sayin

Originally Posted by murrays

Indeed, filters (oil & air) get better at removing particles after they are used for some time. If they weren't designed in this manner, they would become too restrictive very quickly.

Do you have anything to base this statement on? LOL A K&N air filter will perform as well as a regular one when 'dirty', and will perform better for longer due to the oil trapping dirt, but will not perform better than a clean K&N. Filters wick the dirt away and into the element to retain their collection abilities, but they do not work "better" when dirty. Again, if dirty was better we would be buying used oil filters. Thh companies would be running their oil and filters for about 3,000-5,000 miles before selling them to us.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by skw

I think there's a balance between the extremely short 3k interval and the extremely long 15k interval. My take on this is that for the x20 & x35 engines, doing a 1200 mile service is unnecessary. The factory fill oil is not the same oil that you're using off the shelf. It's formulated and has additives designed specifically for the 1st x number of miles of an engines life which also aid in the break-in process and needs to be run for a longer period. I was once told that dumping this factory fill too early would not be a good thing. The M engines are a different story and I would be inclined to believe that the factory fill in those motors is designed to be dumped at 1200 miles.



3,100 miles and w/ a full synthetic oil, while may produce a peace of mind, is absolutely unnecessary, even in a turbo charged engine. Waste of money and resources. The minimum I would go is 5,000 miles. If keeping the car long term, sending samples for oil analysis would be your best bet. You can then find your sweet spot (5k, 7.5k, 10k...) for when the oil you're using is starting to breakdown and lose it's lubricating properties. It can also be an early alert to engine problems as the reports will also show abnormal amounts of various minerals present in the oil.

When I had my e39 528i (M52 engine?) and Nissan Xterra V6, I ran Amsoil synthetic oil and sent samples to Blackstone Labs at each oil change. I did it in 5k intervals just because it was easier to remember but the reports always came back saying the oil had plenty of life left. At a bit over 70k miles, a sample from the Nissan came back showing abnormal engine wear. The next report after that showed it even more. Needless to say, that car soon got traded in.

If you are that concerned then send a sample to these guys for analysis. They showed that before 7000 mile there is no need/point in changing oil.

[CalCarNut]

Some very good points made here. Not sure I am buying that the oil in the car when new is 'break-in' oil. Seems it would be off the shelf (at the time) Castrol Synthetic. And as I've said and others seem to agree, a short interval oil change when new certainly couldn't hurt. I think I'll do the 1200 mile OIL change time frame and then go with the BMW cycle. I'd rather remove any metal particles from the engine that got by the engine build asap. $100 is a cheap piece of mind for a nice car and it's hopefully extended longevity as I'm not one to baby a car while driving..but I am one to keep maintenance up on it......

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Another benefit of leasing: you can ignore this whole thread lol.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by pheerix

Another benefit of leasing: you can ignore this whole thread lol.

Another benefit of leasing: you can powershift for the win! Being able to powershift also makes driving home easier when you are drunk because you don't have to focus on that third pedal.

[DantonIzzo]

I didn't do an oil change at 1200 miles, but got it done this past weekend at 4,400 miles. The dealer was running an oil change special for $79.99, so I figured why not? I'll probably stick to the 10k milies interval moving forward.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by pheerix

Another benefit of leasing: you can ignore this whole thread lol.

LOL. I briefly thought about leasing..but I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (see sig line for how old a few of them are)...so it didn't make sense to me to walk away after 3yrs of lease payments and then have nothing to show for it. Not sure I'd want your car after the lease was up if maintenance was a non issue for you

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

I didn't do an oil change at 1200 miles, but got it done this past weekend at 4,400 miles. The dealer was running an oil change special for $79.99, so I figured why not? I'll probably stick to the 10k milies interval moving forward.

I'm with you brother...although it'll be at the 1200 or so mile mark 'just because'.

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

LOL. I briefly thought about leasing..but I tend to keep my cars for a very long time (see sig line for how old a few of them are)...so it didn't make sense to me to walk away after 3yrs of lease payments and then have nothing to show for it. Not sure I'd want your car after the lease was up if maintenance was a non issue for you

I'm going to do all the scheduled services but I'm not going to obsess about what is happening microscopically with the engine or the rest of the car for that matter. I used to do oil changes every 4500 miles but that got old real fast and as others have shown, unecessary and wasteful.

[murrays]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

Again, it's a simple logic puzzle that proves the theory wrong. If changing the oil at 3k or 5k is "detrimental" because the existing oil with mileage on it is "better" than the fresh oil from the store.......then why don't manufacture's sell us oil that has been run for 3k or 5k miles already?

Simple logical answer, if the life of the oil is, say, 10k miles, starting with "broken in" oil would shorten the useful life. I have no idea if oil gets better or not since I've never looked into it.

Originally Posted by Thumper333

Do you have anything to base this statement on? LOL A K&N air filter will perform as well as a regular one when 'dirty', and will perform better for longer due to the oil trapping dirt, but will not perform better than a clean K&N. Filters wick the dirt away and into the element to retain their collection abilities, but they do not work "better" when dirty. Again, if dirty was better we would be buying used oil filters. Thh companies would be running their oil and filters for about 3,000-5,000 miles before selling them to us.

Yes, I base my statements from my experience working as a design engineer for Cummins Filtration for 10 years. What qualifications do you bring to the table?

Those particles that get trapped, as you mention, allow the filter to trap smaller particles that would pass through a new filter. That's what I mean by "better".

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by pheerix

I'm going to do all the scheduled services but I'm not going to obsess about what is happening microscopically with the engine or the rest of the car for that matter. I used to do oil changes every 4500 miles but that got old real fast and as others have shown, unecessary and wasteful.

Gotcha..

[435MSport6Speed]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

My other recommendation is that the OP not tighten the oil drain plug all the way. If you leave it a bit loose, you'll be able to top off the engine oil every day. This ensures that the oil is always fresh.

Made me laugh and spit on my screen. Thank you.

[stormlv]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

First, not shooting the messenger.

The trouble with that analogy is that wine, and motor oil are completely different in every way and can no way be related to draw a parallel. Wine is by definition fermented, this requires long periods of time. Therefore you will have that bell curve. Oil is a wear item and is damaged by use, therefore any use will reduce it's lifespan.

We can not change the laws of physics.
...

You do know what an analogy is, right?
It's like saying a pump and a heart don't make for a good analogy because one is biological and works with blood and the other is man made, electrical and works with water.

Look, what I was trying to say is that you are making an assumption when you say that any use of an oil degrades the quality of it.

Take for instance radiation...
By a simple logic puzzle there's a linear relationship between a radiation dose and adverse effects.



Well, under a certain dose, the effects are not fully quantified yet.
There are studies which even say that a tiny bit of dose can actually be good for you (plot E).

All that I'm saying (and the SAE paper I showed) is that oil could have the same type of curve.

Originally Posted by Thumper333

...

Personally......I find it funny that people buy $40k+ cars and then waffle and argue about what, in reality, amounts to an extra $100 a year in maintenance. If that $100 a year is that big of an issue, maybe buying an expensive performance car was a bad idea.......just sayin
...

What a nice red herring.

No one was advocating not changing the oil, or was against doing a yearly maintenance.
The original question was if a 1200 mile oil change was warranted or not. The debate certainly wasn't whether we should extend the oil change interval to 30k miles.