[Golden Arrow]

I had AWD in my E46 (I don't think they called it X-drive back then) and loved it. I currently have a RWD 335, and sometimes I miss the feeling of knowing weather will never be an issue.

If you live in a snowy place, go with X-drive.

[RJH]

Originally Posted by KG3356MT

LMAO best post ever!!

Always a bad apple or two in the barrel. Most Canadian's are not such jerks; please accept my apology on behalf of the other 35M.

BTW: if you need training wheels than you might want to re-think the whole sport sedan thing. However, I've also seen way more SUVs in the ditch and struggling with the weather, because someone told they were impervious to slippery roads or snow.

Like I said, if I could have a re-do, I would be to go for the 335 RWD and manual; it's the classic BMW experience, or a least wait for 328 in that configuration.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by RJH

Like I said, if I could have a re-do, I would be to go for the 335 RWD and manual; it's the classic BMW experience, or a least wait for 328 in that configuration.

Apparently, the M235i xdrive has the same sport suspension as the RWD model. Xdrive is rear biased (70/30) so the only real penalty is the added weight, if you can deal with two doors.

I can easily get my rear end loose in wet or dry conditions.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by LagunaSecaBlue

I'm over 40 (wow, that's more painfiul to type than I thought it would be!), lived in Canada my whole life. If this is a daily driver, xDrive and snow tires in the winter. Full stop.

Because if I have to sit behind you on the QEW during a snow storm because you listened to some guy in California tell you "xDrive is for girls" and are now driving 25 km/hr and sliding all over the place, I'm going to pull you out of your car, punch you in the face, and tell you "I told you so."

50 for me. We are all pistonhead driving gods in the UK so we have fandgo wide summer tyres all year - even when we have 1 inch of snow ... However for grumpy old gits like me, We on winters and xdrive with snow socks for the Alps.

Nothing comes close to powering passed pistonhead driving gods in their rear fandgo wide wheeled chav machines sliding all over the place.

My best episode yet, was picking up a guy whose car had just slid off the side a 1:6 hill going up and me going down hill like a rally driver on speed, watching him slowly go white out the corner of my eye ... Childish I know ... And calmly saying not to worry, we are 4wd and on winters.

(Tin hat on, waiting for abuse)

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Raptor7

I've just been reading about RWD vs FWD car and I've read a lot of mixed opinions. I live in Ontario (Canada) where we do get snow. I read one thread somewhere where a young driver was going to get one of those small Mazda miata's and people were saying its not recommended for a young driver in the winter. Whats your take on it, I'm 22 right now? Will I be getting stuck in snow? Are there any challenges I will be facing?

Note: I will get winter tires once I purchase a 428i/435i, also looking at getting an automatic transmission

If you routinely get snowfall that leaves you with 8+" of powder on the road, then yes, you should consider AWD.

With that said, if you don't want to sacrifice handling/performance with AWD, then look into the Audi S4.

[casualDIYer]

It's usually an extra 4k for xdrive in Canada. That's a total rip. Honestly for plowed roads it won't make $4000 worth of difference. Spend the money on other options and get a set of winter tires.

[Bassthe1st]

Personally, I think I couldn't drive in winter without AWD anymore. Not because I can't, but because I know that whatever the conditions I always get great acceleration. It also pulls way better out of corners when it's slippery. Seriously, in winter you can safely do things with AWD that would be dangerous with RWD. Yes it's a little more expensive. Yes the car is heavier. But it,s totally worth it. Now if I lived in a place that rarely sees snow, I would probably not have AWD.

[Mike_L]

xDrive, hands down. I've found that this version is comparable to Quattro and can get through just about anything. The front end will plow before the car gets stuck.

[Livfast335]

OP, I have the x-Drive and live in Quebec where we get pounded every year. No issues at all, works awesome. Sure the RWD would have been fun, but its less practical when 5 months a year we deal with white crap. The x-drive will be just as powerful, and give you that piece of mind.

[Pauleebe]

I thought it was a little early in March for the monthly xDrive vs RWD debate.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by RJH

I'm another crazy Canuck, living in Toronto but often heading north to cottage-country and god's-country (Sudbury area) regularly, but I still regret buying X-drive. Sure it's better in the snow, but anyone with half a brain can in drive in the snow and if you're still challenged, mount a set of snow-tire training wheels to get 5-10% better stopping distance (assuming you have all-season and not summer tires).
RWD on the other hand is a lot more fun; but the downside is it may actually require driving skill.
The only reason I caved on the x-drive was because dealer claimed a 6mth wait for RWD 328 + special order$, and he didn't believe he could even get one with manual. My wife, who never drives the car anyway and can't put air in her tires, got sold big time by salesman's pitch. So now I drive a nice but boring car - AWD and auto.
My suggestion, save the cost of AWD, get a stick and use money on a BMW driving course. And just stay home for the 1-2 days you get 30 CM (12"ish) snow. Or save you money and buy an automotive appliance like Toyota Camry

Sorry but it's the wrong kind of advise you are giving a 22 year old who is looking to buy a 428/435. He lives in Canada and deals with snow on winter time for about six months. I think I rather see him save his life and others by getting Xdrive with four winter tires and have less FUN. with no disrespect to OP, because he is young, his driving skills are limited plus Xdrive is actually FUN in winter because you wI'll be able to control the car better and actually stop.

[Kankles]

off-piste poste (a bit): I'd like to see a poll of xDrive owners and the percentage of Auto Trannys versus 6MT.

I went the 335 xDrive route with 6MT and feel like it's probaby a rare combo. The only think I didn't initially like about the xDrive was the "stance", i.e. ride height. I went the "RWD Sport Spring" route before they came out with the HR xDrive springs and I couldn't be happier. It got the ride height down a bit and the DHP still works great.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Sorry but it's the wrong kind of advise you are giving a 22 year old who is looking to buy a 428/435. He lives in Canada and deals with snow on winter time for about six months. I think I rather see him save his life and others by getting Xdrive with four winter tires and have less FUN. with no disrespect to OP, because he is young, his driving skills are limited plus Xdrive is actually FUN in winter because you wI'll be able to control the car better and actually stop.

Here we go again....

The main advantage xDrive has over RWD is forward acceleration in deep snow. It has little to no impact on control, safety, and stopping. xDrive doesn't stop any better than RWD does. Stopping is a function of the amount of grip you have between the road surface and your tires. What type of tires you have will have the most impact on control, safety, and stopping.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Stopping is a function of the amount of grip you have between the road surface and your tires.

The main cause of skids is that brakes put most of their effort into stopping the front wheels, causing the rear end to swing around. The key to preventing skids is to avoid the brakes entirely. That being the case, AWD works better than 2WD, especially with XDrive, which puts more of the braking power provided by the engine on the rear wheels than the front. Just as important is having the ability to go around other cars that have spun out or are stuck, rather than futilely trying to stop before you run into them. There also AWD wins.

[mastereh]

Originally Posted by LagunaSecaBlue

I'm over 40 (wow, that's more painfiul to type than I thought it would be!), lived in Canada my whole life. If this is a daily driver, xDrive and snow tires in the winter. Full stop.

Because if I have to sit behind you on the QEW during a snow storm because you listened to some guy in California tell you "xDrive is for girls" and are now driving 25 km/hr and sliding all over the place, I'm going to pull you out of your car, punch you in the face, and tell you "I told you so."

Well said!

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The main cause of skids is that brakes put most of their effort into stopping the front wheels, causing the rear end to swing around. The key to preventing skids is to avoid the brakes entirely. That being the case, AWD works better than 2WD, especially with XDrive, which puts more of the braking power provided by the engine on the rear wheels than the front. Just as important is having the ability to go around other cars that have spun out or are stuck, rather than futilely trying to stop before you run into them. There also AWD wins.

And here we go again as well...

Bottom line up front: Engine braking on snow/ice in a PROPERLY equipped vehicle is not necessary.

It's not effective. It's not doesn't offer enough control. And your foot brake is what you are going to use in an emergency stop situation.

Engine braking in a passenger car is not an effective retarding force compared to those big rigs. The reason is that big rigs use BOTH compression braking AND exhaust braking. A standard passenger vehicle doesn't come anywhere close to that with engine braking alone. Engine braking force is insignificant compared to the amount of braking force offered by the foot brake.

The purpose of engine braking is to slow a vehicle down on a LONG CONTINUOUS decline where the heat capacity of the braking system would be exceeded. There are so few scenarios where this would be the case for a F30 3 series. The heat capacity of our braking system relative to the weight of the car is radically different from that big rig that there's almost no purpose for engine braking.

The braking threshold is SO much higher winter tires that if you're not a terrible driver and you can modulate your brake pedal smoothly, you will not enter an unrecoverable skid. In the case of a manual car, it is far more likely than a poorly executed and rev matched downshift would cause a skid than the smooth application of the brake pedal. It requires more driver skill to execute a perfect rev match downshift than it does to modulate the brake pedal smoothly.

Also, the front/rear weight distribution and brake bias is less of a concern on snow/ice surfaces because even with winter tires, you won't have the ability to load up on the front of the car during braking as you would on a dry surface with summer tires.

[educated_layman]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The main cause of skids is that brakes put most of their effort into stopping the front wheels, causing the rear end to swing around.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't have access to any of the technical documents used in their design, but I'm pretty sure that most vehicle braking systems are designed to apply slightly more force to the front wheels because there is a forward weight shift whenever the vehicle is slowing down, and the magnitude of that shift is proportional to the magnitude of deceleration. The maximum braking force at a wheel can never exceed the tire's maximum tractive force (which is a linear function of the weight on that tire), or that wheel will lock up. This is true irrespective of the amount of traction available on the driving surface.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The key to preventing skids is to avoid the brakes entirely. That being the case, AWD works better than 2WD, especially with XDrive, which puts more of the braking power provided by the engine on the rear wheels than the front.

So then, why wouldn't 2WD (which puts *all* of the "braking power" on the rear wheels) work even better than XDrive?

I admit, my question is disingenuous and rhetorical. I'm not picking on you; I'm just illustrating the point that this is an extremely technical matter and can only be described adequately with the use of precise terminology. For example, "braking power" doesn't really make sense in this context. Power = torque * RPM = force * velocity, so that doesn't seem very useful in this situation. I think you can describe the behavior of the vehicle almost entirely in terms of forces. There are forces applied to the rotors by the brakes and forces applied to the road by the tires. The latter consists of three mutually independent (orthogonal) effects: the force applied in the direction of travel (braking/acceleration), the force applied perpendicular to the direction of travel on the plane of the driving surface (centripetal acceleration -- cornering), and the force perpendicular to the driving surface (the weight of the car).

At any time, in order to achieve minimum stopping distance, you will want slightly greater force applied to the front brakes than the rear due to forward weight transfer (the only exception to this would be if you had a trailer with significant tongue/kingpin weight over the rear axle, or were going up a very steep hill -- I am not considering those scenarios). Now, if your front brakes were to exceed the maximum tractive force of the front tires, the front wheels would lock up and the total braking force of the front wheels would drop dramatically (the braking force at that point is equal to the force of dynamic friction between the locked up tires and the driving surface, which is vastly lower than the force of static friction between the same materials -- the maximum force achievable through braking immediately prior to wheel lock-up). The vehicle's rate of deceleration would then drop significantly and the forward weight transfer would be thus reduced, resulting in more weight over the rear wheels. Since the rear wheels have slightly less braking force applied, they could potentially retain their traction despite the front wheels being locked up. This would result in more braking force being applied at the rear wheels than the front, which will act as a restoring force to the vehicle's orientation (look up "mechanical trail"). This is exactly the effect desired, as it will tend to straighten the vehicle out (that is, align it front-to-rear with its direction of travel).

Because of the effect I just described, there isn't any real benefit to the use of engine braking under conditions of decreased traction (even in an AWD car). If anything, it will make you more likely to lose control because the force applied through the use of engine braking is much more difficult to modulate and the act of applying engine braking suddenly (which is usually what happens) results in "jerk" which can cause a loss of traction.

In the case of a 2WD vehicle, however, there is simply no discussion. Engine braking with a 2WD vehicle in conditions of reduced traction is suicidal, provided that the vehicle's service brakes are not approaching their heat capacity. See my post here.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Just as important is having the ability to go around other cars that have spun out or are stuck, rather than futilely trying to stop before you run into them. There also AWD wins.

AWD will provide a very slight benefit in this situation as compared to an equivalent 2WD vehicle. But in the case of cornering, the most important force is that perpendicular to the direction of travel but within the plane of the driving surface (centripetal force), and the way to increase the maximum force the vehicle can apply to the ground along that axis is to use tires designed to provide maximum traction on that surface (snow tires).

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by educated_layman

I'm pretty sure that most vehicle braking systems are designed to apply slightly more force to the front wheels because there is a forward weight shift whenever the vehicle is slowing down, and the magnitude of that shift is proportional to the magnitude of deceleration.

True. So long as the road conditions won't cause fishtail it's not a problem. When they will cause fishtailing you're better off with more braking applied to the rear wheels. The best way to do that is with engine braking. RWD does offer an advantage in that manner over FWD. The only advantage to engine braking with FWD is that it's less likely to cause wheel lock up, unless you have a very good ABS system. Engine braking with AWD that puts most of the braking on the rear wheels is better than with RWD, since RWD doesn't brake the front wheels at all. Very experienced drivers, like professional racers, get around the fishtailing issue with brakes by using the emergency brake in concert with the brake pedal and transmission, but that's not recommended practice for those who haven't been well taught in how to do it. I was fortunate enough to have been taught emergency brake technique at the Bob Bondurant school, but since I don't push the envelope any more I never have need to use it. If you're not trained in how to use the emergency you also run the risk of locking up the rear wheels. That's OK if you're trying to do a Bootlegger/Rockford 180 spin turn, but if that's not the intent you'd best be wearing Depends, because you'll need them.

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by Thrillbilly

off-piste poste (a bit): I'd like to see a poll of xDrive owners and the percentage of Auto Trannys versus 6MT.

I went the 335 xDrive route with 6MT and feel like it's probaby a rare combo. The only think I didn't initially like about the xDrive was the "stance", i.e. ride height. I went the "RWD Sport Spring" route before they came out with the HR xDrive springs and I couldn't be happier. It got the ride height down a bit and the DHP still works great.

2013 335 xDrive, manual tranny, DHP, 19 inch rims, Dinan Shockware & Springs. The car NOW drives and handles the way it should of from the factory. Steering still to light for me, but otherwise car is great. XDrive + Blizzaks were outstanding this winter (Long Island , NY). I'm probably going to leave the Blizzaks on longer than usual until they fix all the potholes. It's a real mess in and around Manahattan and the 5 boroughs.

[BimmerMat135]

I would say it all depend of your commute. If you have to drive alot on snowy hills, remote iced roads and parralel park in tiny urban spots don't hesitate ordering an x-drive. If not rwd should do the job. Both cases buy yourself some good snow tires.

[Raptor7]

wow thank you all for all the responses, I think im going to go with an xdrive with winter tires for peace of mind and not worrying about getting stuck or slipping and sliding

[tex2670]

According to AutoTrader, 55% of BMWs are sold with AWD:

http://www.philly.com/philly/classif..._security.html