[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by takumichinoku

You can “call me out” if you want.

I put my money where my mouth is and I know where I put it. Like I said what’s more important is how you feel with your experience of owning one not depreciation but if you want to insist that you prefer bmw depreciation then so be it. Lol.

I’ve owned and still do both. It’s honest debate so I’m fine with you calling me out on this one and il stand by MY opinion and you can stand by yours. Simple.

I didn't "call you out", I said that I called out a specific example. You seem to be finding it aggressive so I apologise if it comes across that way.

I'm genuinely interested in whether mass market Porsches do indeed hold their value better than the BMW equivalents. Which was a point that you made very firmly but seem very reluctant to back up with an example.

At one point, the Macan GTS had a great reputation for retained value. I think davyk31 moved his on, so perhaps could educate us.

My own experience was something like 65% retained value on my 440i over 30 months/16k miles, which I thought was pretty fair.

[takumichinoku]

Although my main point is as a brand in general I am happy to give one example.

M550i vs panamera gts...

The thing is as a brand they are slightly different with bmw being mainstream and Porsche being a sports car brand who now makes more and more mainstream cars.

Macan gts mk1’s were selling over list I remember but those days are gone. However all their gts models still hold strong money. Great cars and the sweet spot IMO!

These conversations are constantly brought up so I can only mention my own experiences also with both brands. Yes I’ve probably chosen one of the least depreciating models and been lucky but once you go past a certain amount for cars they pretty much are one of the safest bets.

As I said my 530i is actually my fave car. Does everything and more.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

I didn't "call you out", I said that I called out a specific example. You seem to be finding it aggressive so I apologise if it comes across that way.

I'm genuinely interested in whether mass market Porsches do indeed hold their value better than the BMW equivalents. Which was a point that you made very firmly but seem very reluctant to back up with an example.

At one point, the Macan GTS had a great reputation for retained value. I think davyk31 moved his on, so perhaps could educate us.

My own experience was something like 65% retained value on my 440i over 30 months/16k miles, which I thought was pretty fair.

MashinBenzin I assume that was sale price to price paid rather than retail value? I think the perception of Porsche as a low depreciator is because stats area always quoted as sale value to retail price - which of course historically for porsche has been what you paid. When you redo the calcs for vehicles with high discounts on purchase their numbers look a lot more attractive.

And of course whether you talk percentages versus absolute pound notes (given porsche purchase prices tend to be higher then it could be a lower percentage drop but a higher pound note drop) and no options / lightly optioned / heavily optioned cars (more relevant to porsche) makes a big difference to.

I had a Macan GTS on order before I bought the SQ5 and whilst the percentage depreciation on the Porsche that was predicted was lower, the £££ cost was higher due to a £13k difference in purchase price....and some discount on the Audi.

My current Audi has a retained value per the GFV of c46% based on retail price over 4 years /32k miles. But based on what I paid its nearer 55%. I wonder if a Cayman GTS with £6k of options, bought at retail, would beat that? It would suggest a trade in of 40k and retail at nearer £50k at 4 years old...

[takumichinoku]

I think we can both agree that buying whatever car at the right price is most important. I guess each persons situation will be different no matter which brand.

I only wish bmw didn’t constantly offer massive discounts and low gfv’s. It just devalues them as a brand for me and probably upsets quite a few punters who pay rrp not knowing there are some serious discounts to be had.

Anyways back on topic. OP go test drive

[takumichinoku]

Isleaiw

Audi sq5’s have always been fantastic residual wise. You don’t need me to confirm what you already know right?

Does that mean I compare a 991 GT2 to your SQ5?

[JNW1]

But surely the depreciation issue depends very much on what you use as your starting point?

With a Porsche the list price and the discounted price are often pretty much one of the same but, as we know, historically with BMW's there've been quite large discounts available (at least for the savvy buyer). So by reference to list price I'm sure Porsche's hold their money better than BMW's but that's probably less the case when you use the discounted price many buyers of BMW's actually pay.

ETA: I think isleaiw1 has just made a similar point!

[MashinBenzin]

@isleaiw1 absolutely! From my point of view, depreciation is from price paid to price received. And then we have total cost of ownership too.

If you compare retail new to retail used, Porsches look good to great - including the cooking ones. But if the owners are seeing close to five figures less on trade in then that tells a very different story.

Comparing retail new to retail used (or trade) then BMW depreciation looks bad. But I can't believe that more than a vanishingly small percentage of BMW buyers are walking into a showroom and paying list. Even if you tried, I bet you'd be redirected to a stock model or offer that showed an apparently attractive saving.

When I looked at the Cayenne, I expected the residual reputation to mean a relatively on par TCO. The reality was starkly different. And then i started adding options, or standard equipment as it's known elsewhere in the motor industry. Which made it a king depreciator.

[takumichinoku]

Isn’t that one of the main problems of bmw? Constant support/discounts with the low gfv’s. Forever changing. At least Porsche are consistent.

It’s a muddled game which affects the brand for me. Can imagine some punters paying full list and thinking never again.

[takumichinoku]

The secret to them is to not go crazy as their options list is extensive and expensive. Paying for auto lights and wipers lol.

It’s an expensive game but as mentioned before pay to play. It reminds me of the watch game funny enough.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by takumichinoku

Isleaiw

Audi sq5’s have always been fantastic residual wise. You don’t need me to confirm what you already know right?

Does that mean I compare a 991 GT2 to your SQ5?

I think I compared comparable models - they even had the same engine! (That is Macan v SQ5). Petrol SQ5, not the original mk 1 diesel and being a petrol SUV not renowned for being a great investment.

I compared the Cayman GTS against my RS4 as they are both mid 70s retail in a decent spec and I toyed with a GTS for a nano second before practical reality kicked in. I never considered a GT2 when I bought the SQ5....

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by takumichinoku

The secret to them is to not go crazy as their options list is extensive and expensive. Paying for auto lights and wipers lol.

It’s an expensive game but as mentioned before pay to play. It reminds me of the watch game funny enough.

Ah, I didn't realise it was a secret, lol. Paying for airbags for your children, lol.

Hard to keep up with your constantly moving goalposts, but hard to correlate it being an expensive game with being low depreciation.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by takumichinoku

Isn’t that one of the main problems of bmw? Constant support/discounts with the low gfv’s. Forever changing. At least Porsche are consistent.

It’s a muddled game which affects the brand for me. Can imagine some punters paying full list and thinking never again.

There's no doubt buyers paying close to list price for at least some BMW models are setting themselves up to take a huge hit on depreciation and you're right, in that sense Porsche's pricing policy is more consistent and transparent. However, that doesn't alter the fact an informed buyer doesn't necessarily take quite the soaking on depreciation with a BMW that you're making out!

[takumichinoku]

Maybe I sounded too harsh myself.

It’s probably a more personal experience for me as I wouldn’t buy another mainstream model from Porsche so no point me arguing that one. Their cost ownership is higher no doubt so you have to really want one. I’m just using their special models as my example as they are the only ones I put my hard earned into. If it’s a broad range of models across the board I guess I’m inexperienced to comment.

Btw guys I’m a bmw fan I think you forgot about my bmw

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

More "look at me" journalism, I'll write something different and all the fan boys will click on it, my views will go through the roof and I'll be rich / an influencer extraordinaire.

Wonder what he bought with his own money before he became "famous".....

Two James May shirts to stitch together?
(classic comment I saw on that very YT video, lol'd at that).

[davyk31]

As I was mentioned I will tell you my experiences. Had my Macan GTS for 47 months and sold it to trade for over 70% of its new cost. There was no discount so that is 70% of RRP. I put in a decent deposit of 15k and got 13k of that back when I sold so the proceeds were way above the residual finance value.

One proviso is don’t sell to an OPC as they are ridiculously greedy especially my local dealer who I bought the car from. Their bid was by far worst I was offered and way way below We Buy Any Car. Other Porsche dealers did give better offers but in the end I sold it to a prestige used dealer. They would then have sold it in excess of 80% of its new RRP.

Second proviso is my car was mega low mileage at 10000 and totally showroom condition but can’t see the position would be that much different for an average mileage car.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by davyk31

As I was mentioned I will tell you my experiences. Had my Macan GTS for 47 months and sold it to trade for over 70% of its new cost. There was no discount so that is 70% of RRP. I put in a decent deposit of 15k and got 13k of that back when I sold so the proceeds were way above the residual finance value.

One proviso is don’t sell to an OPC as they are ridiculously greedy especially my local dealer who I bought the car from. Their bid was by far worst I was offered and way way below We Buy Any Car. Other Porsche dealers did give better offers but in the end I sold it to a prestige used dealer. They would then have sold it in excess of 80% of its new RRP.

Second proviso is my car was mega low mileage at 10000 and totally showroom condition but can’t see the position would be that much different for an average mileage car.

So bit of *** packet maths, I reckon your car cost nearly £2 a mile in depreciation!!

Even my M5 only cost that much in the 11 months I had it!

And there you go, so many ways to disect the same numbers that any conclusion you like can be supported. Lies, damn lies and statistics...

[JD6]

My view FWIW is that the majority of people don't have a good understanding of depreciation, and that confusion largely arises from the incorrect use of list prices.

If you put a poll on this forum asking which depreciates more (in absolute terms) over the first 3 years and 30k miles - a Cayman 4.0 GTS or a 730d, I think the vast majority would say the 730d.

If you look at the best lease price of a Cayman GTS on those terms it equates to £38k over the 3 years. Doing the same for a 730d and the result is £23k.

This is comparing the best quotes from all lease providers. I think it would be reasonable to conclude that the 730d is expected to depreciate less, since the lease cost is effectively buy price minus sell price, plus funding cost, plus VED, plus profit margin.

I don't doubt that the Cayman will be worth a higher percentage of its list price after 3 years than the 730d, but that's not a sensible measure of depreciation.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by davyk31

As I was mentioned I will tell you my experiences. Had my Macan GTS for 47 months and sold it to trade for over 70% of its new cost. There was no discount so that is 70% of RRP. I put in a decent deposit of 15k and got 13k of that back when I sold so the proceeds were way above the residual finance value.

One proviso is don’t sell to an OPC as they are ridiculously greedy especially my local dealer who I bought the car from. Their bid was by far worst I was offered and way way below We Buy Any Car. Other Porsche dealers did give better offers but in the end I sold it to a prestige used dealer. They would then have sold it in excess of 80% of its new RRP.

Second proviso is my car was mega low mileage at 10000 and totally showroom condition but can’t see the position would be that much different for an average mileage car.

That's cracking - i imagine the mileage had some impact, but all the same it would have been a great return after 4 years.

The Macan GTS (and I think the same is true of the Mk.2 Cayenne) is a great buy new as the standard kit level is very good, at reasonable cost.

Thanks for answering btw

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

That's cracking - i imagine the mileage had some impact, but all the same it would have been a great return after 4 years.

The Macan GTS (and I think the same is true of the Mk.2 Cayenne) is a great buy new as the standard kit level is very good, at reasonable cost.

Thanks for answering btw

as I said though, £s or percentages, as its still best part of £20k in a car that did 10k miles. My Audi lost a similar pound note value over 22k miles, but hald the time.

Bigger percentage, same £s, lower cost per mile. Funny old game.....

[davyk31]

Don’t think your comparisons Ian over a time span of either a quarter or half of my Macan ownership make any sense. All that means that had you kept those cars 4 years then your cost would have been a load more than my Porsche.

For a car of its value, performance and quality the Macan GTS is an excellent choice but as I say don’t sell back to your dealer. When I was getting a price from them for mine they suggested a range of 5k as it it was only a hundred quid or so difference. Their offer to me was shocking and totally trying to rob me and I made my view very clear to them. There is only one Porsche dealer in Northern Ireland and they definitely exploit that.

In the end they annoyed me and I didn’t order another GTS and the fact a facelift was rumoured on the cards soon made me sit and wait a little and enjoy my wife’s M135i.

[robwils]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

So bit of *** packet maths, I reckon your car cost nearly £2 a mile in depreciation!!

Even my M5 only cost that much in the 11 months I had it!

And there you go, so many ways to disect the same numbers that any conclusion you like can be supported. Lies, damn lies and statistics...

That would be a good result for me , as in other thread only done 8K miles in M3 in 2.5 years

£ per mile is not something I calculate

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by davyk31

Don’t think your comparisons Ian over a time span of either a quarter or half of my Macan ownership make any sense. All that means that had you kept those cars 4 years then your cost would have been a load more than my Porsche.

For a car of its value, performance and quality the Macan GTS is an excellent choice but as I say don’t sell back to your dealer. When I was getting a price from them for mine they suggested a range of 5k as it it was only a hundred quid or so difference. Their offer to me was shocking and totally trying to rob me and I made my view very clear to them. There is only one Porsche dealer in Northern Ireland and they definitely exploit that.

In the end they annoyed me and I didn’t order another GTS and the fact a facelift was rumoured on the cards soon made me sit and wait a little and enjoy my wife’s M135i.

But I did twice the mileage and over 4 years it would have been 40k ..... a car with 10k miles on has a much better value. But yes, I wasn't trying to show that the Audi was better, I was showing that however you look at it, you can show a car as great value (70% retained) or bloody expensive (£2 a mile) depending on your view.

Cars - expensive however we pretend otherwise!

I am sticking with the ISA savings these days. They hopefully go up in value.