[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by robbiep

You've missed the point a bit regarding salaries and banding, if I may correct you.

Whilst yes, you are correct that salaries have a range, a nurse doesn't automatically move up to the next band when they reach the top of their current band.

So a Registered nurse (including specialities like oncology, paediatrics, etc) is Band 5. Their starting salary is (in Wales, unsure if there are differences in England) just shy of £24,907, moving up to £30,615 per annum. There will also be unsociable hours payments as they will be required to work bank holidays, shifts, etc.

To move up to a band 6 (£31.3k - £37.9k) requires either a considerable level of speciality or training, working solo / unsupervised or without backup (community nursing, for example), or taking on a junior Sister / assistant ward managerial role.

Band 7 (£38.9k - £44.5k) is a Senior Sister / nurse in charge (NIC), team leader for an entire area of community / District nurses, the NIC for an entire local authority school nurse area. Responsibility for dozens of staff and a budget of millions

Band 8a (£45.7k - £51.7k) is a Matron role - the Matron is responsible for an entire area - for example emergency care, which would include A+E, surgical admissions, acute medical unit, paediatric trauma unit, the X-ray and imaging areas attached to those units, minor injury unit, GP out of hours unit - one matron would be responsible for all of those in a major hospital.

Above band 8a, you're not 'in' nursing, you're involved in planning, hospital management or finance at a very senior level.

Oh, and regarding pensions, you're only on a very generous benefit scheme if you joined before 1995 (generous) or 2008 (slightly less generous) systems. It was re-done in 2015, and for those people who joined the NHS from 2015 on, accrues at 1/54th of salary per annum.

All of this data is freely available via search engine, including pension calculators, details of the 1998, 2008 and 2015 schemes, along with salary banding and what job roles are within what salary bands.

I never said you moved up automatically, but you can if you are ambitious. My daughters friend is already band 6, and a good friends daughter is an ICU sister T 30. I assume she is band 6 or 7.

So if they increased the band by cost of living then everyone gets at least cost of living, those not at the top of the band get more and those ambitious/ lucky get to go up a band.

Every hour above 37.5 per week paid at time and a half, I think. Bank Holidays paid double time I suspect?

The fact you describe a 1/54th pension scheme as not being very generous says it all. I have never had a final salary scheme that generous (incorrect- I did for 2 years when I fluked a 45th scheme just as they closed it). I doubt most people on here have had a final salary scheme in last decade or longer, its 20 years for me!

So I stand by my point, I couldn't do the job, but I think all this terribly hard done by nurses getting only 1% is a bit incorrect...

[Grogu]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

I never said you moved up automatically, but you can if you are ambitious. My daughters friend is already band 6, and a good friends daughter is an ICU sister T 30. I assume she is band 6 or 7.

So if they increased the band by cost of living then everyone gets at least cost of living, those not at the top of the band get more and those ambitious/ lucky get to go up a band.

Every hour above 37.5 per week paid at time and a half, I think. Bank Holidays paid double time I suspect?

The fact you describe a 1/54th pension scheme as not being very generous says it all. I have never had a final salary scheme that generous (incorrect- I did for 2 years when I fluked a 45th scheme just as they closed it). I doubt most people on here have had a final salary scheme in last decade or longer, its 20 years for me!

So I stand by my point, I couldn't do the job, but I think all this terribly hard done by nurses getting only 1% is a bit incorrect...

I think that’s missing the point. They had all that already.

The only thing relevant is what the 1% pay rise means. It means that in a year that they’ve seen colleagues die, whilst risking their own lives to care for others, especially last year with hardly any PPE and understanding of how it spread, that they’re going to see a real world drop in pay.

Inflation plus 1% would be fair in my mind. Or inflation plus a one-off bonus.

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by Grogu

I think that’s missing the point. They had all that already.

The only thing relevant is what the 1% pay rise means. It means that in a year that they’ve seen colleagues die, whilst risking their own lives to care for others, especially last year with hardly any PPE and understanding of how it spread, that they’re going to see a real world drop in pay.

Inflation plus 1% would be fair in my mind. Or inflation plus a one-off bonus.

Did the Army get over and beyond public pay rises after Iraq and Afghan ?

I agree they should get a pay rise but how / when / where can it be attributed. Not everyone was seeing colleagues die, probably a small minority. Plenty of other public health workers died without the protection afforded to many NHS workers..

[Grogu]

Originally Posted by JR1664

Did the Army get over and beyond public pay rises after Iraq and Afghan ?

I agree they should get a pay rise but how / when / where can it be attributed. Not everyone was seeing colleagues die, probably a small minority. Plenty of other public health workers died without the protection afforded to many NHS workers..

Yes. A year after Camp Bastion was set up and the toughest year in Helmand, this was the pay award.

“Servicemen and women will receive an above-inflation pay rise of 2.6%, the defence secretary, Des Browne, said today.

The award, which is more generous than those offered to other public sector workers, recognises "the tremendous contribution" made by armed forces personnel, the Ministry of Defence said.”

Recognising their tremendous contribution couldn’t be more apt for current circumstances either.

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by Grogu

Yes. A year after Camp Bastion was set up and the toughest year in Helmand, this was the pay award.

“Servicemen and women will receive an above-inflation pay rise of 2.6%, the defence secretary, Des Browne, said today.

The award, which is more generous than those offered to other public sector workers, recognises "the tremendous contribution" made by armed forces personnel, the Ministry of Defence said.”

Recognising their tremendous contribution couldn’t be more apt for current circumstances either.

Fair play but different Government...they then awarded the Police 2.5% and nurses 2.75%

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by JR1664

Did the Army get over and beyond public pay rises after Iraq and Afghan ?

I agree they should get a pay rise but how / when / where can it be attributed. Not everyone was seeing colleagues die, probably a small minority. Plenty of other public health workers died without the protection afforded to many NHS workers..

We've lost 5 staff in my hospital. Another 2 or 3 will probably never return to work (two in their early 60s, still suffering with long Covid).

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Grogu

I think that’s missing the point. They had all that already.

The only thing relevant is what the 1% pay rise means. It means that in a year that they’ve seen colleagues die, whilst risking their own lives to care for others, especially last year with hardly any PPE and understanding of how it spread, that they’re going to see a real world drop in pay.

Inflation plus 1% would be fair in my mind. Or inflation plus a one-off bonus.

No disagreement on that, and as I said 2.1% as a standard for all (so raising band limits as well) but I would go some form of bonus as a one off.

The rest was just to counter the "poor nurses" headlines...

[Wills2]

Does a 1/54th pension scheme mean you accrue 1/54th of your salary every year so 40 years @ 40k = £740 x 40 = 29,629 per annum pension?

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Does a 1/54th pension scheme mean you accrue 1/54th of your salary every year so 40 years @ 40k = £740 x 40 = 29,629 per annum pension?

Yes. Though you pay in a percentage of your salary to be part of the scheme, it isn't included automatically.
The percentage that you put in depends on your salary and banding - the lowest paid (porters, catering, domestics) pay in 5.6% of their salary, for most nurses it's 9.3% of their salary, for the top-end it's higher (caps out at 14.5% of salary)

Nothing about this is some sort of secret, it's all public record.

Here is the link showing the 2015 scheme and the percentages and salary break points for them

https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/member-hub/cost-being-scheme

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Does a 1/54th pension scheme mean you accrue 1/54th of your salary every year so 40 years @ 40k = £740 x 40 = 29,629 per annum pension?

Yes, and inflation+1.5% annual growth to the 1/54th amount.

Its by far the best pension you could want, considering there is zero risk and the as an employee you don't even need to do anything.

Ironically lots of NHS staff are so disillusioned with the NHS senior management many opt out without realising what they are giving up.

Anyone interested in joining the NHS, pretty much every trust has staff vacancies at all levels, from cleaners to senior management.

[Danny Fireblade]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

I'd love a 1% pay rise this year.

Me too Alex.

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Yes, and inflation+1.5% annual growth to the 1/54th amount.

Its by far the best pension you could want, considering there is zero risk and the as an employee you don't even need to do anything.

Ironically lots of NHS staff are so disillusioned with the NHS senior management many opt out without realising what they are giving up.

Anyone interested in joining the NHS, pretty much every trust has staff vacancies at all levels, from cleaners to senior management.

You've completely failed to point out that you put in a percentage of your salary to be part of that pension scheme though - as I've listed above.

Not exactly a case of 'don't need to do anything' as you claim !

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by robbiep

You've completely failed to point out that you put in a percentage of your salary to be part of that pension scheme though - as I've listed above.

Not exactly a case of 'don't need to do anything' as you claim !

Yes but have you calculated how much you need to put away per month into a private pension to achieve the same figures? Its ALOT more than what the pre tax pension contributions are in the NHS.

The +1.5% above inflation rate over 20 years is worth 30% by itself!

Speak to people in the private sector about pensions and you will see how good the NHS deal is, and you don't have to anything, unless you opt out, which makes zero financial sense at all.

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Yes but have you calculated how much you need to put away per month into a private pension to achieve the same figures? Its ALOT more than what the pre tax pension contributions are in the NHS.

The +1.5% above inflation rate over 20 years is worth 30% by itself!

Speak to people in the private sector about pensions and you will see how good the NHS deal is, and you don't have to anything, unless you opt out, which makes zero financial sense at all.

I'm not saying if it's a good scheme or not.

My point was that in your post you claimed that NHS staff had to do absolutely nothing to get that pension level - which implied that the pension benefit is part of the package of being NHS staff.

Even in this latest post, you say that "You don't have to do anything"

Such a claim is disingenuous, to say the least.

[Wills2]

On the face of it it looks a decent scheme however that has to weighed against the private sector where people can earn the same again as their salary in bonuses whilst not having the same kind of pension provision, swings and roundabouts.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by JR1664

Did the Army get over and beyond public pay rises after Iraq and Afghan ?

I agree they should get a pay rise but how / when / where can it be attributed. Not everyone was seeing colleagues die, probably a small minority. Plenty of other public health workers died without the protection afforded to many NHS workers..

comparing the war in Afghanistan and Iraq to the risk and efforts that many medical staff had to put in to save vulnerable lives in Britain is not the best argument especially in relation to pay rises.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

comparing the war in Afghanistan and Iraq to the risk and efforts that many medical staff had to put in to save vulnerable lives in Britain is not the best argument especially in relation to pay rises.

Perhaps not but if there is any branch of the public sector that is under paid it's the Army they can be and are asked to risk everything for peanuts.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Perhaps not but if there is any branch of the public sector that is under paid it's the Army they can be and are asked to risk everything for peanuts.

I don't know much about army pay but certainly won't object to a pay rise for them. If they didn't get a pay rise it is wrong but doesn't justify not giving a pay rise to NHS.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I don't know much about army pay but certainly won't object to a pay rise for them. If they didn't get a pay rise it is wrong but doesn't justify not giving a pay rise to NHS.

There is only so much money that we can afford it's the same in the private sector they're not handing out pay rises, we're up our neck in debt as a country and so many people have no job because of covid.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Wills2

There is only so much money that we can afford it's the same in the private sector they're not handing out pay rises, we're up our neck in debt as a country and so many people have no job because of covid.

surely we can afford to pay our army and NHS staff better. This decades old excuse of the country is broke has been rolled out many times.

[SuperHamz]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

surely we can afford to pay our army and NHS staff better. This decades old excuse of the country is broke has been rolled out many times.

This is the same argument we had under the Cameron/Osborne Government, austerity was the excuse then, but somehow they managed to find an 11% pay rise for the politicians and £4bn for refurbishing The Palace Of Westminster, which is apparently going to cost the taxpayer up to £20bn.

The same people who argue against NHS pay rises are the ones who defend politician pay rises.

The money is there, just not for the NHS, Armed Forces or our Police. The people who protect and heal us deserve a lot more than they get. This is purely political ideology.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by robbiep

Even in this latest post, you say that "You don't have to do anything"

Such a claim is disingenuous, to say the least.

But you don't??

Its part of the PAYE, the only time you have to act is if you opt out.

You can earn lots more in the private sector, but no one I know is in the NHS for the money, which is partly why there are so many unfilled posts everywhere.

Someone here said someone about double pay for bank holidays?? Well that's just rubbish, as a consultant I've done 24hr overtime shifts recently due to gaps in the junior rota for £40/hr pre tax, so about £20/hr take home - I than had my normal working day to do the following day.

Arguing about a 1% payrise isn't what most NHS staff care about, but news generated isn't going to help staff recruitment or retention. The government knows this, so they are willing to push until the staff shortages are so bad it forces them to act.

Nurses deserve every penny of their pay and what ever pay rise they can get. Its a humbling job and they are the back bone of the NHS.