New Porsche 991 GT3. - _CHRIS HARRIS

[F1Venom]

So is this car driveable again? Has Porsche remedied the engine recall and given the cars back to their owners who have barely spent any time with them?

[sgrinavi]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

So is this car driveable again? Has Porsche remedied the engine recall and given the cars back to their owners who have barely spent any time with them?

I heard it's a connecting rod failure poking holes in the block causing fires - they're replacing the engines.

I'd risk it.

[sgrinavi]

Originally Posted by M3/4 life

Yes, we are but I must admit the DCT as well as the PDK are downright awesome on top of the fact quicker than rowing your own gears. And the bottom line with that comes down to an article I read detailing the reason Porsche only went with the PDK in the GT3. And while it was something they wrestled with it came down to making the GT3 faster around the track & that’s exactly what the PDK does as well as the DCT in the M3.

However, the manual is still available just not in the GT3....

By that logic if a gt3 with forced induction is faster around the track is justification for getting rid of the N/A motor. Sure the DCT/PDK cars are faster - I don't care, I don't buy a car because it goes 0-60 a few 10ths quicker from 0 to 60 ; I buy it because I like the experience - And I prefer the experience of a manual.

Not that it would stop me from putting one on my short list if I could afford it, but it would be nice to have the option.

[M3/4 life]

Originally Posted by sgrinavi

By that logic if a gt3 with forced induction is faster around the track is justification for getting rid of the N/A motor. Sure the DCT/PDK cars are faster - I don't care, I don't buy a car because it goes 0-60 a few 10ths quicker from 0 to 60 ; I buy it because I like the experience - And I prefer the experience of a manual.

Not that it would stop me from putting one on my short list if I could afford it, but it would be nice to have the option.

While I understand your view point you must understand the GT3 is a track oriented sports car. Therefore the logic behind the PDK is simply about being quicker around a race track whereas time does in fact matter.

As far as the motor is concerned Porsche does at least offer you the option of an turbo car with manual transmission if that’s of your liken. BMW on the other hand gives you no choice it’s now turbo or bust.

[W///]

Originally Posted by M3/4 life

Not sure if you realize it or not but the E46 M3 weighed in at 3415lbs. do you realize if they would have put the S65 engine in that car (by the way which weighed in at around 30lbs lighter than the 3.2L inline 6 engine) and added a carbon fiber roof to that platform you would have had an M3 weighing in at 3200 lbs.

As far as price of the 3 series goes, the 3 series is BMW's best selling series and IMHO the sports car of BMW the other series are just to big & heavy to be sporty. And the M is/was suppose to seperate the boys from the ///Men that's where the money should be poured the M3 is/was completly different from any other car BMW offers. I mean what's sporty about a 4200lbs M6 or an 4400lbs M5!

I doubt Porsche will ever completly abandon their NA program they understand its place, that’s the bulk of their sales not the turbo. Not to mention the typical community that buys the Porsche is usually we older car enthusiasts who are die hard NA fans.

Just like how you'd always be able to buy a Ferrari with a manual transmission? I wouldn't be surprised at anything to be honest. Pagani could have easily stayed with the V12, which was what made the Zonda so ridiculous, but they also went turbo route.

Look at the size difference between an E46 and E92. Hell, let's go further back. Here's a picture of my E36 vs my E92.


Between all the new safety gear and technology, it's hard for M to shave weight off of a 3 Series. This is not like a 911 or Corvette where it's a bespoke platform. If you compare the M3 to it's real competitors, it's usually one of the lighter cars of the group.

This is why I'm really excited about the M2.

P.S. I never understood the huge deal about the M5/6 being so heavy. Sure it would be nicer if they were lighter, but how many people are actually taking these cars to the track? Now if the M3/4 came out at over 4000 lbs, that would be completely different IMHO.

[adc]

Originally Posted by W///

this is not like a 911 or Corvette where it's a bespoke platform.

Isn't the new Z06 3500-3600 lbs?

[adc]

Originally Posted by W///

This is why I'm really excited about the M2.

Don't get too excited. The M235i is around 3500lbs - that's about as much as the M3/4.

I don't think they will lavish as much weight saving on the M2, and with less power than the M4 and about the same weight, it will not be any faster, more agile or thrilling.

Hope I'm wrong.

[W///]

Originally Posted by adc

Don't get too excited. The M235i is around 3500lbs - that's about as much as the M3/4.

I don't think they will lavish as much weight saving on the M2, and with less power than the M4 and about the same weight, it will not be any faster, more agile or thrilling.

Hope I'm wrong.

I don't see why they wouldn't apply the same kind of weight savings as the M3/4. If there's one thing I've learned now that I've driven an e36 for a while is that power is overrated. The E36 weighs about 3100 lbs, with 240 hp and 240 ft/lbs of torque and is an absolute blast to drive. I'd like to see a 3300 lbs M2 with 380 hp.

[adc]

Originally Posted by W///

I don't see why they wouldn't apply the same kind of weight savings as the M3/4. If there's one thing I've learned now that I've driven an e36 for a while is that power is overrated. The E36 weighs about 3100 lbs, with 240 hp and 240 ft/lbs of torque and is an absolute blast to drive. I'd like to see a 3300 lbs M2 with 380 hp.

One word - cost. The M235 starts at $45k, basically $50k with just a few options which will likely be standard on the M2. In the end, the M2 could not be more than $55k otherwise it encroaches on the $62k M3.

As far as mechanicals, M2 will essentially be an M235 with a tweaked engine, M3 suspension bits and limited slip. The aluminum suspension and wheels might pare a little bit of weight down, 20-30lbs if we are lucky. All the carbon bits are expensive, and they still don't add up to a lot of weight savings. Certainly no more than 50lbs and that's being generous.

All in all I'd be really surprised if the M2 gets to 3400 lbs, and if there is only 100lbs difference between it and the M3 then I would probably pick the M3 over it.

Would love to be proven wrong you know...


And although I loved my E36 M3, I find my E90 M3 is even more exciting to drive. YMMV.

[W///]

Originally Posted by adc

One word - cost. The M235 starts at $45k, basically $50k with just a few options which will likely be standard on the M2. In the end, the M2 could not be more than $55k otherwise it encroaches on the $62k M3.

As far as mechanicals, M2 will essentially be an M235 with a tweaked engine, M3 suspension bits and limited slip. The aluminum suspension and wheels might pare a little bit of weight down, 20-30lbs if we are lucky. All the carbon bits are expensive, and they still don't add up to a lot of weight savings. Certainly no more than 50lbs and that's being generous.

All in all I'd be really surprised if the M2 gets to 3400 lbs, and if there is only 100lbs difference between it and the M3 then I would probably pick the M3 over it.

Would love to be proven wrong you know...


And although I loved my E36 M3, I find my E90 M3 is even more exciting to drive. YMMV.

I actually just came back from a mountain run with an F10 M5 tagging along and the E36 is completely different than the E92. The E92 felt so much more planted, but the E36 was a lot of fun to drive. One thing is for sure, the 225 tires up front just don't cut it for me.

As for the M2, you are correct. We all know it'll be an N55 under the hood (which will keep cost down vs the S55), with M3 suspension bits + LSD, and proper M brakes. What I'm hoping for is an aluminum hood, CF roof and trunk (CSL style duck tail), hopefully lighter wheels. If that can be had for under $55k with 0 options, I think it'll sell like hot cakes.

[lsmkr01]

Originally Posted by adc

That is just not possible. M doesn't start with their own body shell, they have to work with whatever the current chassis BMW has in production.

That's the issue right there! Why can't the M cars have their own aluminum chassis??? Look what Audi and Land rover have transformed their cars by significantly cutting their cars weight using lighter alloys for the chassis. Instead of just suspension changes on a basic car it would be nice to see major structural changes under the skin like GM did with the standard C6 vette vs the Z06/ZL1. The first M3 was homologated to be a racer but that's no longer the case. The M3 only seriously races in DTM, a series where the production car (accept engine) is nothing like its road going version.

Some times I think they pushed this generation of M3/M4 out just to buy time to further develop the CFRP tech that will be added to the next generation. Situation just kind of has that E36 M3 feel to it... with the US engine.

[adc]

Originally Posted by lsmkr01

That's the issue right there! Why can't the M cars have their own aluminum chassis??? Look what Audi and Land rover have transformed their cars by significantly cutting their cars weight using lighter alloys for the chassis. Instead of just suspension changes on a basic car it would be nice to see major structural changes under the skin like GM did with the standard C6 vette vs the Z06/ZL1. The first M3 was homologated to be a racer but that's no longer the case. The M3 only seriously races in DTM, a series where the production car (accept engine) is nothing like its road going version.

Some times I think they pushed this generation of M3/M4 out just to buy time to further develop the CFRP tech that will be added to the next generation. Situation just kind of has that E36 M3 feel to it... with the US engine.

That would just drive up the cost in the $100k-$150k range, and the car would become irrelevant to the vast majority of the people on this forum. If I could afford a car in that range, I know exactly what I'd get and it ain't a bimmer.

I much prefer an M3 firmly anchored in sedan land, with all the advantages that offers: superb practicality, room for 4 and reasonable cost. Hell if it were any more expensive than it is, I'd be out of an M3 too.

I kind of like the silliness of a family car that can kick serious butt on and off the track, and wish they never change the formula.


Now should BMW build a fast, lightweight supercar in the $100k-$150k range? Yes is my answer, I'd like to see them challenge the establishment with a pure performance automobile (without any Eco-BS involved). But leave the M3 to the masses.

[W///]

Originally Posted by lsmkr01

That's the issue right there! Why can't the M cars have their own aluminum chassis??? Look what Audi and Land rover have transformed their cars by significantly cutting their cars weight using lighter alloys for the chassis. Instead of just suspension changes on a basic car it would be nice to see major structural changes under the skin like GM did with the standard C6 vette vs the Z06/ZL1. The first M3 was homologated to be a racer but that's no longer the case. The M3 only seriously races in DTM, a series where the production car (accept engine) is nothing like its road going version.

Some times I think they pushed this generation of M3/M4 out just to buy time to further develop the CFRP tech that will be added to the next generation. Situation just kind of has that E36 M3 feel to it... with the US engine.

Yet somehow the Audis still aren't any lighter, and in some cases are heavier than BMW's (apart from the F10, that thing is so heavy).

Unless the base model starts coming out with aluminum components, this is all you are going to see on M cars unfortunately.

[Kunman]

If only BMW slimed the M3's fatass down to 1400kg.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Kunman

If only BMW slimed the M3's fatass down to 1400kg.

If only a new Cayman S were $40k new

[Arth]

Love the M3 and after
Test driving the new M4 I'm looking At getting into a 2012 M3 manual for my daily driver.

For the track you can't beat this

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by Arth

Love the M3 and after
Test driving the new M4 I'm looking At getting into a 2012 M3 manual for my daily driver.

For the track you can't beat this

nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by M3/4 life

Makes me wish BMW would of just improved on the current platform instead of messing up a good thing with this twin turbo crap (hell gas mileage isn't even that much better I thinks I read it's like 17/26 the E9x gets 14/20 with a V8).

If BMW would of just made the current E9x lighter & increased hp & torque & improved the brakes I would of been the first in line for the new M3/M4! Can you imagine an NA V8 at 3200lbs 475hp 350lbs ft torque with ceramic brakes it would of had Porsche & everyone else on standby.

That would of been BMW moving the M forward, BMW took a huge step backwards imho with this new M. It's one thing to keep the NA V8 and also offer a turbo version like Porsche & Ferrari but to scrap the best engine ever put into an M was just plain stupid! The only thing that kept the current M from being the best all around car at everything was it's weight! Take 400lbs. off the current M and the current brakes & torque would have been more than sufficient!

Hell I would of even been willing to pay $75,000 or even $85,000 for an M like the one I described! The Carrera S ran the same times as the new Corvette with 400hp & 325 lbs ft of torque weighing in at roughly 3200 lbs.

end of rant sorry for I just have always loved the M3 & BMW went & messed up my dream car with this stupid turbo sh*t. And who makes a sports coupe lighter but makes it longer.....

Dont think anyone would be on standby with that car...but its nearly impossible anyway seeing as even the 1M was over 3300 lbs.

[bm11]

My next car will be a GT3, but it'll be a 997. Not because I don't love the 991, but it's way outside my budget.