[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by chris719

Are you going to stick with an E85 forever? I'm not disputing what you say, I just don't know who is doing a better job with brand new cars.

I'll try to keep my E82 as long as I can. I had my E36 for 18 years until I traded it in (in retrospect, I shoulda kept it) for the E82.

Yeah, nothing in my price range looks appealing at the moment. My brother's son has an E92 that he doesn't drive much... Could be a worthwhile project car. My brother had a Fjord Blue 1975 2002, but I didn't have the money to buy it off him.

[Rono63]

I'm old enough to remember when manufacturers went from manual steering racks to hydraulic assisted and the automotive world thought it was the end of good handling cars, num feel that would never be good. Now we have the same going from hydraulic to electric assisted. It may not be good for the enthusiast but it's better for the average driver.

Don't even get me started about the loss of feel and control when they switch to drive by wire throttle control. Didn't use to need "Sport +", you just mashed the peddle more.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Rono63

I'm old enough to remember when manufacturers went from manual steering racks to hydraulic assisted and the automotive world thought it was the end of good handling cars, numb feel that would never be good. Now we have the same going from hydraulic to electric assisted. It may not be good for the enthusiast but it's better for the average driver.

Can't please everyone. I sense BMW are trying to please the majority.

To think BMW introduced EPS over 15 years ago and implemented it in E9x 3-series models (in Europe ) circa 2007. 15-years ago! And we still have EPS discussed as if it is the end of our BMW world.

Just think of how many million BMW vehicles are now running around with EPS, and most users don't give it a thought.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Just think of how many million BMW vehicles are now running around with EPS, and most users don't give it a thought.

Ignorance versus knowledge!
I drive new BMWs every day as part of my job. When it's time to go home, I'm enjoying my 2013 128i Msport 6-speed with its perfect steering feedback, normally aspirated inline-6, and simple iDrive interface with Bluetooth and Music Collection hard-drive. I see little advantage in all the new technology and none in the feedback they don't supply for the actual driving experience.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I sense BMW are trying to please the majority.

Of course. It's just that there's a group of us that would like a car or two as an option from them that didn't go the same direction as all the others. Just one that didn't get bigger, or heavier, or tech laden, or where they didn't *intentionally* numb the feedback through the steering wheel. The company used to be focused on this fun factor across the board. They don't have to remain that way forever, but we're wishing there would at least be one option left for us. The new M2 was a great candidate but... sadly no. There's a tiny chance the Z4 can get a stick, but feeling anything through the wheel is somewhat unlikely and the world's biggest ipad for a dash is somewhat likely. And thus you are about at the end of the road.

If there was a car for us, there would be even more sales.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Ignorance versus knowledge!

How many users really want or need the knowledge?

With all the complaints about BMW's heavy steering over the years, many see it as totally acceptable. Light, precise and... it's just 'steering' anyway.

Even on this forum, we can read many users prefer the lighter Comfort steering, compared to the Sport calibrations.

Enthusiasts? We can debate the finer nuances of steering forever.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Onesie

A resounding no from an enthusiast’s perspective, which is what THIS thread is about.

BMW would not survive with just the enthusiast. We have to face that BMW decided years ago to build a bigger business, which requires a wider appeal than the BMW enthusiast.

The world has moved on from the days of the E30, (or whatever), whether we as enthusiasts like it or not.

I can wax lyrical about "the good old days" of BMW, including the E30. I simply don't live there anymore and still enjoy driving my BMW of choice. If I didn't, I'd move on, either to another BMW of choice, or elsewhere.

I also add that many users buy into BMW models who aren't enthusiasts. If they are the biggest customer base, they are listened to more than the enthusiast.

[Theruleslawyer]

Most people buying a car these days are looking for a way to remove themselves from the driving experience. More autonomous features. more tech. more isolation. They ideally want to be able to scroll their socials while the car does the work. It used to be good dynamic was a value add since it made the attention you had to pay to the car have some payback. Now its just additional harshness to interrupt them from what they really want to do.

Safety, performance, and even fuel economy is demanding more layers between the driver and the car too. In new cars you don't directly control anything.

It doesn't help that increasing traffic and things like automated enforcement making having any fun on public roads without making a long trip out of the city harder and harder.

All of it really is antithetical to owning a drivers car. Its how you get things like Porsche and Lamborghini making SUVs.

So yah. Hardcore enthusiasts aren't really a target market anymore. It'll only get worse too as automation get better. I'm kinda hoping it makes actual sports cars more extreme. You get the automated sofas for the proletariat and then hard edged sports cars because they won't have to make excuses to people looking to buy them anymore.

[Mavus]

seems like they lost their balls when they put tight pants bean counters in charge



need to wake up and have fun

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Of course. It's just that there's a group of us that would like a car or two as an option from them that didn't go the same direction as all the others. Just one that didn't get bigger, or heavier, or tech laden, or where they didn't *intentionally* numb the feedback through the steering wheel. The company used to be focused on this fun factor across the board. They don't have to remain that way forever, but we're wishing there would at least be one option left for us. The new M2 was a great candidate but... sadly no. There's a tiny chance the Z4 can get a stick, but feeling anything through the wheel is somewhat unlikely and the world's biggest ipad for a dash is somewhat likely. And thus you are about at the end of the road.

If there was a car for us, there would be even more sales.

Yeah remember the days when nobody modified their BMW At least give the M2 a chance my man. You say you want something fun but if you swear it off before it’s even released, you might be depriving yourself

[x622]

Originally Posted by DDD31

I’m also not in love with BMW’s direction for the future. I understand that BMW is in business to make money and they seem to be doing a good job catering to the masses.

As for myself, none of the upcoming BMWs interest me in the least. From the ungodly huge grills to any of the SUVs and iX models, I just can’t even remotely get excited about the upcoming BMWs.

Unfortunately my M5 will probably be my last new BMW and it makes me sad after being a lifelong BMW fanboy to say that.

.

Did you see this?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...33850798474486

[IsleOfMs]

I've had both and the G20 is a far better car than the E46 M3.

My first quibble is that BMW's marketing shtick is not in line with any car they've ever built. The ultimate "driving machine" surely would have the best interfaces, the best feel. No BMW has ever been able to compete with Porsche in that regard.

The actual promise of a BMW is a sedan/saloon or big heavy coupe that is "grown up" while being "pretty good to drive."

The problem with the E46 M3 is it failed in both regards. It wasn't very fun to drive and it wasn't very comfortable.

Because of the way compromise usually works, you'd expect any car that did one of those things better would do the other one worse. But the G20 is way faster, way more fun to pilot around a narrow mountain road, and way more comfortable.

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

About the looks... different strokes right? But let's not pretend old BMWs were good looking

E46 - dull
Z3 - clown shoe
the post E46 era with the Tim Burton Joker smile headlights

They only recently started to look good. Some of the new cars are missing the mark but the M3/M4 grills look great thanks to the way the painted body panels juxtapose directly next to the black openings without a trim.

[VR1]

I should be BMWs target audience, 25 year old six figure corporate earner with cash to burn. I currently own a E92 M3 Competition that I bought a year ago and have tentatively started figuring out what my "next" car in 3-4 years is going to be.

Unfortunately it seems like the brand I loved as a kid simply has nothing to offer me due to a mix of strange styling and a lack of focus on driving dynamics. I drove the G80/G82 on the track at a BMW performance driving event and if the external ugliness didn't turn me off from it, the driving experience did. It's an insanely capable car... but it just felt numb from a mix of lack of steering feedback, lack of soundtrack, and a characterless ZF automatic.

The brand has seemed to moved in a direction of catering to customers who want something fast, sporty, and tech laden, and not necessarily caring as much about driving dynamics. I still think the cars are good to drive (I think the SUVs specifically nail this perfectly as they aren't supposed to have a major focus on dynamics anyways) but they seem to lack the specialness that made BMW, BMW. If I were in the segment for a normal 3 series I would most likely buy an IS, CT4, or Giulia instead since all those cars seem (atleast in reviews) to be more focused on driving dynamics than BMW.

For me, the G8X is ruled out. I was excited by the G87 M2 until I saw that it weighed more than my E92 and had some cross-eyed action going on. Ironically the modern BMW I like the most is actually the Supra; if BMW made a Z4M coupe with a manual and focus on dynamics, I would absolutely buy it in a heartbeat. Otherwise I have my name down on the Emira and am looking at the Cayman range.

[Wheelwright]

In my mind BMWs used to stand for two things:

1) elegant, timeless styling
2) function over form, which was honed to perfection over decades (for example: the best in business, yet unassuming-looking orange rev-meters)

Now we are getting the opposite with many (not all) BMW models:
1) mechanical brutalism instead of elegance in styling
2) form over function (glossy plastics which look good, but don't last, flashy, yet hard-to-use controls, and conspicuous lack of buttons)

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by bmwspice

I've had both and the G20 is a far better car than the E46 M3.

My first quibble is that BMW's marketing shtick is not in line with any car they've ever built. The ultimate "driving machine" surely would have the best interfaces, the best feel. No BMW has ever been able to compete with Porsche in that regard.

The actual promise of a BMW is a sedan/saloon or big heavy coupe that is "grown up" while being "pretty good to drive."

The problem with the E46 M3 is it failed in both regards. It wasn't very fun to drive and it wasn't very comfortable.

Because of the way compromise usually works, you'd expect any car that did one of those things better would do the other one worse. But the G20 is way faster, way more fun to pilot around a narrow mountain road, and way more comfortable.

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

About the looks... different strokes right? But let's not pretend old BMWs were good looking

E46 - dull
Z3 - clown shoe
the post E46 era with the Tim Burton Joker smile headlights

They only recently started to look good. Some of the new cars are missing the mark but the M3/M4 grills look great thanks to the way the painted body panels juxtapose directly next to the black openings without a trim.

Wait....what is this??? Someone saying the E46 M3 is worse than the G20? IMPOSSIBLE, they don't know what they are talking about, they aren't a car enthusiast.

In all seriousness. This has been my point. The point is, everyone likes their cars differently. Just because one person doesn't like how it drives, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It also doesn't make them more or less of a car enthusiast.

To put it bluntly with cars, it just is. Nothing more, nothing less. Either you like it, or you don't. You can have the crappiest car in the world to 95% of people in the world, but there will always be those who enjoy the car. Does that mean they can't be considered car enthusiasts? Does that mean they are clearly wrong and have no idea what they are talking about? Simply put, no to both of those.

[tturedraider]

BMW CCA is the largest single-marquee car club in the world. I wonder if that will last. People joined because their BMW stirred their passions. How many of you “new generation” BMW owners are passionate enough about your car and the brand to shell out the cash to join a BMW car club?


Edit: I do know folks are still joining. At least seven forum members have used my member number as their referral just this year.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by bmwspice

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

How about electric steering intentionally designed to remove feedback from the wheel?

No one's complaining about parking sensors.

Could certainly do without ipad (no, oops, sorry) idrive 8, but we might end up agreeing that's an opinion, much like one's feelings on having to go through a menu to bump the heat a few degrees, etc. Or heated seat subscriptions.

Like the bumper design, those things add up but are indeed annoyances not specific to the driving experience. That however has been dialed out and is what folks complain about with the tech intrusion (i.e. the steering).

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I disagree. Back when BMW offered substantially better driving cars than what was offered by other makes (1970s, 1980's, 1990's), they made the owner a better driver because the chassis was so well engineered it reacted better to driver input. The BMW chassis always remained composed, and after a decent amount of seat time, the driver improved his skills. The correct mirror placement, the large greenhouse, thin roof pillars, correct seating position, correct steering wheel placement. Better headlights, better sightlines over the hood, less tiring gauge lighting. Easy to read gauges, tactile and memory placement of controls. Direct brake feel for better modulation. Proper weight balance. Steering feel. All these things were engineering science BMW instituted in its car designs and made for better drivers. That's why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line was not marketing hype.

It is now, though...

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Wait....what is this??? Someone saying the E46 M3 is worse than the G20? IMPOSSIBLE, they don't know what they are talking about, they aren't a car enthusiast.

In all seriousness. This has been my point. The point is, everyone likes their cars differently. Just because one person doesn't like how it drives, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It also doesn't make them more or less of a car enthusiast.

To put it bluntly with cars, it just is. Nothing more, nothing less. Either you like it, or you don't. You can have the crappiest car in the world to 95% of people in the world, but there will always be those who enjoy the car. Does that mean they can't be considered car enthusiasts? Does that mean they are clearly wrong and have no idea what they are talking about? Simply put, no to both of those.

Well said.

Some posters in this topic don't understand my position either, I see both sides of the enthusiast argument. My wife says I have BMW in my blood, so she sees a bias towards BMW.

As I've stated earlier in the tread, I was there from before BMW really earned their iconic motoring status. E21, E30, E12, E28, yes I know those cars well. They weren't perfect at all, great cars but flawed and quirky in some respects. I witnessed how the E30 earned its place in the UK motoring history. I enjoyed driving an E30 323i, (before we had the 325i), many trips cross country in Southern England. Lovely car, even with flawed brake feel, and a twitchy back end. But at the same time I still would choose the 5-series E28 528i. A far better vehicle, IMO.

My father started with a New Class 2000 sedan in 1971, he owned multiple BMW models like the E3 2500, settled for 7-series models. When he died he had an E23 735i in his garage, which he was driving until the week he passed.

I've have owned an E39, to many folks, the pinnacle of BMW vehicles. I had a well spec'd 540i wagon. Loved that vehicle, but I have to say I enjoy my current F11 535i wagon just as much. The F11 is the BMW I've owned the longest ever, 10+ years. Why? Because it is a superb vehicle. Period. When I move on, I'll miss it more than the E39.

When owning the E39 540i I'd carry passengers, many who appreciate decent vehicles. But to explain at low speeds why the ride was compromised, (M-Tech suspension) and have to say. "It's better at speed, it hunkers down and smooths out" is no excuse for a fidgety ride quality on less than perfect road surfaces, at typical speeds we drive all day.

Forward to the F11 with its electronics, controlling Adaptive Drive, and hey, I have decent ride quality at low speeds and better handling than the E39 on M-Tech, at speed, all at the touch of a button. What's not to like as a BMW 'enthusiast'. Yes, it is bigger than my first 5-series by a mile, but all cars have grown, people expect it as family transport, BMW or not.

I fully understand some enthusiasts want the same today as say the E30 of the past, even the E46. Our 1 & 2-series cars are much bigger and far heavier today than the older 3-series. How we get back to light weight and small vehicles, I don't know.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I disagree. Back when BMW offered substantially better driving cars than what was offered by other makes (1970s, 1980's, 1990's), they made the owner a better driver because the chassis was so well engineered it reacted better to driver input. The BMW chassis always remained composed, and after a decent amount of seat time, the driver improved his skills. The correct mirror placement, the large greenhouse, thin roof pillars, correct seating position, correct steering wheel placement. Better headlights, better sightlines over the hood, less tiring gauge lighting. Easy to read gauges, tactile and memory placement of controls. Direct brake feel for better modulation. Proper weight balance. Steering feel. All these things were engineering science BMW instituted in its car designs and made for better drivers. That's why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line was not marketing hype.

It is now, though...

Other marques have caught up?

Many on here rate the E9x models and are hanging on to them as the last decent BMW, for dynamics.

I remember when I had my E91 wagon, (I'd driven quite a few E9x examples to get to the spec' I wanted), I wasn't happy with its dynamics, including the HPAS steering. I went into my Ford Dealer to drive a demo UK (2006) Mondeo on my local roads. Iust wanted to see if it was me, or what. The Mondeo Zetec, known to be a good setup and decent driver's car on UK roads, blew the E91 away for how fluid it was through the twisty stuff. Much more composed, steering, damping, handling all better than my BMW, and 'cheap as chips' into the mix as well.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

How about electric steering intentionally designed to remove feedback from the wheel?

I see one of the key problems in understanding feedback, we soon get into what is positive feedback and what is negative interference. Some of us like the negative stuff as well, we class that as important feedback.

EPS does allow taking out some of the negative interference, that dulls feedback by its very nature.

Here in the UK BMW steering has had a bashing ahead of EPS, a big turn off in many of the reviews over the years. Too heavy, etc.

We clearly are in different times, with different expectations by many users.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Why buy a BMW then?

There are plenty of cars that have all that tech and create a more relaxing drive for WAY less money than a BMW. Buying a BMW was supposed to be about the driving experience first and foremost and BMW has been moving away from that since the E90. I realize that BMW could never make it as a car company by just catering to enthusiasts but it would be nice if the M cars were still the focused cars of the past. Current M cars are performance monsters by numbers but they have definitely lost the magic of the past.

I salute BMW for adapting with the times and still being a successful manufacturer but this old dinosaur will be moving on.
.

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?