[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Schn3ll

I posted this at Rennlist, mods of the 718EV section removed it. EV folks are a touchy bunch, and I owned 2 at one time, these people are a cult.


Let's imagine we live in a world where all cars were EVs, and then a new invention comes along called the "Internal Combustion Engine!"

Think how well they would sell:
- A vehicle nearly half the weight
- half the price
- almost quarter the damage done to the road
- can be refueled in 1/20th of the time
- has a range up to 4 times the distance in all weather conditions
- does not rely on environmentally damaging use of non-renewable rare earth elements to power it
- uses far less steel and other materials
- no looming $30k+ battery replacement cost
- real engine noise and exciting powerband
- can be driven on the track or in the mountains all day long
- analog driving experience with manual transmission options
- hand-built artisan craftsmanship for unique powertrains, like a swiss watch vs. mass produced apple watches

Just think how excited people would be for such technology. Imagine how long the wait lists would be for real Porsche GT products!

As I posted many pages ago, that's what happened some 140 years ago. There were electric cars before there were ICE cars and there were an number of different models in the late 1800's. The ICE won the car buying public over and EV's disappeared for a reason.

[Car-Addicted]

The case for EV is considerably more complicated today than in the 1900's. If the argument was which is the most cost effective and reliable transportation without government's fat thumb on the scale, the EV would be no more than 5% of the market. Today so many people are convinced the end of the earth is just around the corner while others see climate alarm as an opportunity for control of the masses. These are the drivers of this developing technology today. Just like the push for Ethanol lead to far more BTU's used to produce the Ethanol than it produces while increasing the use of fertilizer and the reduction of food crops, both of which are undesirable unintended consequences. The future will view this EV push in much the same light. Bad environmental decisions to fix a problem that doesn't exist leading to a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor and middle class to the wealthy and connected.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Bad environmental decisions to fix a problem that doesn't exist leading to a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor and middle class to the wealthy and connected.

What is this problem that doesn't exist?

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

The case for EV is considerably more complicated today than in the 1900's. If the argument was which is the most cost effective and reliable transportation without government's fat thumb on the scale, the EV would be no more than 5% of the market. Today so many people are convinced the end of the earth is just around the corner while others see climate alarm as an opportunity for control of the masses. These are the drivers of this developing technology today. Just like the push for Ethanol lead to far more BTU's used to produce the Ethanol than it produces while increasing the use of fertilizer and the reduction of food crops, both of which are undesirable unintended consequences. The future will view this EV push in much the same light. Bad environmental decisions to fix a problem that doesn't exist leading to a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor and middle class to the wealthy and connected.

EV's are the driving force on new affordability. Poors need not apply.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

What is this problem that doesn't exist?

Climate change is constant and therefore NOT a problem. Current CO2 levels are near previous extinction levels.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Climate change is constant and therefore NOT a problem. Current CO2 levels are near previous extinction levels.

The earth is great at sequestering carbon, it was well on its way to being a giant dead dirt ball. So, what do humans start doing? Sequestering the gas that greens the earth.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Climate change is constant and therefore NOT a problem. Current CO2 levels are near previous extinction levels.

So Man should not continually work to do better when it comes to reducing emissions, pollution, improve efficiency, reduce demand resources, etc.? There is so much more to this than just climate change.

You gravely underestimate the amount of review EPA takes into consideration when establishing policy. You have not clue how the process works and all the industry experts involved. Sure, they make mistakes but things do get reconciled, revised, etc.

Sometimes EPA has to push hard. If they didn't push hard, we wouldn't have catalytic converter technology because automakers pushed extremely hard back in 70s not to have the tech go thru. Could you imagine a populated world now that smells like Grudge Night at the drag strip? Ever sat behind a 1970 car at idle? It will make your eyes water.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Climate change is constant and therefore NOT a problem. Current CO2 levels are near previous extinction levels.

Why are you even commenting when you don't even understand the hypothesis?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Wow, what a perfectly meaningless test.

Why is it meaningless? It is testing the batteries for survivable impacts.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by RM7

Why are you even commenting when you don't even understand the hypothesis?

In simple terms he's explaining in the graph that basically there is no noticeable climate change from when time began and when prehistoric reptiles were made extinct, gubments have completely overreacted listening to climate control madmen forcing unwanted EV's onto an easy target public.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by RM7

Why is it meaningless? It is testing the batteries for survivable impacts.

Because planes fall out of the sky perfectly vertical onto a perfectly flat surface.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

So Man should not continually work to do better when it comes to reducing emissions, pollution, improve efficiency, reduce demand resources, etc.? There is so much more to this than just climate change.

You gravely underestimate the amount of review EPA takes into consideration when establishing policy. You have not clue how the process works and all the industry experts involved. Sure, they make mistakes but things do get reconciled, revised, etc.

Sometimes EPA has to push hard. If they didn't push hard, we wouldn't have catalytic converter technology because automakers pushed extremely hard back in 70s not to have the tech go thru. Could you imagine a populated world now that smells like Grudge Night at the drag strip? Ever sat behind a 1970 car at idle? It will make your eyes water.

I don't think any of us are for a more polluted environment. What I have issue with is trying to control anthropogenic causes that are thought to influence climate change outside of its nominal cyclical progressions. I believe Milankovitch cycles and plate tectonics and solar output far outweigh human influences on the climate.

The newest theme, now that rational people have injected geology and paleontology science into the discussion, is anthropogenic-acceleration of the "short term" climate. There is no short term or long term climate, there is just climate. Any modeling of GHG effect tied to climate cycle and the resulting purposeful anthropogenic manipulation of climate drivers is merely Man's futile effort to keep the climate static. ALL the data collected so far indicates there is no such thing as a static climate. If Man thinks he has the capability to offset plate tectonics and orbital performance of the planet to keep the climate static to prolong his window of time as a species on the Earth to either delay or forgo his extinction, well, I just have to laugh.

What I fear is the very near term effects such ideas will have on the economy and continuation of a bountiful food source. It is proven that Totalitarian governments have been known to starve to death tens of millions of people in the span of decades. Rather than scare the living shit out of the children by telling them they are killing the planet, we should be teaching them proper economic theory. That is far more important to their health and well being.

The planet takes care of itself.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

So Man should not continually work to do better when it comes to reducing emissions, pollution, improve efficiency, reduce demand resources, etc.?

Strawman much? Do you still beat your wife?

Originally Posted by XutvJet

You gravely underestimate the amount of review EPA takes into consideration when establishing policy. You have not clue how the process works and all the industry experts involved. Sure, they make mistakes but things do get reconciled, revised, etc.

The EPA is a political construct and the fact that you can't see that is sad. I beat the EPA in court when I was in my 20's and I will never have respect for bureaucrats that couldn't cut it in the private sector.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Sometimes EPA has to push hard.

Watchdog questions accuracy of EPA’s scientific integrity
Investigators had first expressed concern in 2011 that employees might not be familiar with the agency’s scientific integrity guidelines. But following the most recent report — given to the agency in June and made public in August — investigators said the EPA has taken action to correct the problems.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...cientific-int/

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I don't think any of us are for a more polluted environment. What I have issue with is trying to control anthropogenic causes that are thought to influence climate change outside of its nominal cyclical progressions. I believe Milankovitch cycles and plate tectonics and solar output far outweigh human influences on the climate.

The newest theme, now that rational people have injected geology and paleontology science into the discussion, is anthropogenic-acceleration of the "short term" climate. There is no short term or long term climate, there is just climate. Any modeling of GHG effect tied to climate cycle and the resulting purposeful anthropogenic manipulation of climate drivers is merely Man's futile effort to keep the climate static. ALL the data collected so far indicates there is no such thing as a static climate. If Man thinks he has the capability to offset plate tectonics and orbital performance of the planet to keep the climate static to prolong his window of time as a species on the Earth to either delay or forgo his extinction, well, I just have to laugh.

What I fear is the very near term effects such ideas will have on the economy and continuation of a bountiful food source. It is proven that Totalitarian governments have been known to starve to death tens of millions of people in the span of decades. Rather than scare the living shit out of the children by telling them they are killing the planet, we should be teaching them proper economic theory. That is far more important to their health and well being.

The planet takes care of itself.

And this had a far greater effect on global warming than anything man has ever done. As well as Mt. St. Helens in 1980 and Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_H...on_and_tsunami

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Because planes fall out of the sky perfectly vertical onto a perfectly flat surface.

You dont know the difference between a survivable impact/crash and non-survivable then. Airbags, seatbelts, emergency exits, crash structures, fire extinguishers, survival kits, rafts, lifevests, ELTs, etc., all exist because there is a threshold of Gs and forces that define survivable vs non-survivable. Please come back to reality.

[Car-Addicted]

OOPS. . I thought they didn't catch fire when there is a "survivable impact"?

Heatherwilde Boulevard at Texas 45 in Pflugerville shut down by electric vehicle fire.
April 1, 2024
A crash and a fire involving an electric vehicle has closed Heatherwilde Boulevard in both directions at Texas 45 in Pflugerville, officials said Monday morning.

Police are asking drivers in the area to seek an alternative route as traffic is being diverted.

The intersection is closed and crews will remain on scene until fire is extinguished, officials with Travis County ESD 2 said on its Facebook page. They said fires involving electronic vehicles require different tactics then typical vehicle fires and that many times the best tactic is to let the vehicle burn.

[Car-Addicted]

Chesco family says EV charger nearly caught home on fire: What you should know
Friday, April 5, 2024
That outlet was the EV charger used for his Tesla.
He showed us the charred and melted piece of plastic is what's left. Belcraft also wondered what could have happened if his senses had not alerted him.
"My daughter's bedroom is right above the garage. I called a master electrician independent from the builder who came out and said we were minutes from a house fire," he recalled.



"But an EV charger can go for 10-12 hours at full capacity," he said. "These wires can't cool off. They're in the walls with insulation, and before you know it there's a fire."

It's information Becraft wished he knew. He told us a master electrician said his issue was a substandard outlet and the wires were not torqued down correctly.
He is now set up with a wall box and a dedicated circuit in his electrical panel.
"I learned that these setups are very common," he added.
Experts also told us some counties and municipalities also require a permit to install a charging station inside your home.
https://6abc.com/chester-county-pa-f...-car/14617760/

Why in the world would a permit not be required to install a 220volt outlet?

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Chesco family says EV charger nearly caught home on fire: What you should know
Friday, April 5, 2024
That outlet was the EV charger used for his Tesla.
He showed us the charred and melted piece of plastic is what's left. Belcraft also wondered what could have happened if his senses had not alerted him.
"My daughter's bedroom is right above the garage. I called a master electrician independent from the builder who came out and said we were minutes from a house fire," he recalled.



"But an EV charger can go for 10-12 hours at full capacity," he said. "These wires can't cool off. They're in the walls with insulation, and before you know it there's a fire."

It's information Becraft wished he knew. He told us a master electrician said his issue was a substandard outlet and the wires were not torqued down correctly.
He is now set up with a wall box and a dedicated circuit in his electrical panel.
"I learned that these setups are very common," he added.
Experts also told us some counties and municipalities also require a permit to install a charging station inside your home.
https://6abc.com/chester-county-pa-f...-car/14617760/

Why in the world would a permit not be required to install a 220volt outlet?

I had a Tesla certified and well known electrician to us do our two runs. Complete trust in their work as they put in high grade stuff. These cheap Nema 14-50 outlets are not safe for dryers or for welders either. Way too much electricity to go cheap.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

OOPS. . I thought they didn't catch fire when there is a "survivable impact"?

Heatherwilde Boulevard at Texas 45 in Pflugerville shut down by electric vehicle fire.
April 1, 2024
A crash and a fire involving an electric vehicle has closed Heatherwilde Boulevard in both directions at Texas 45 in Pflugerville, officials said Monday morning.

Police are asking drivers in the area to seek an alternative route as traffic is being diverted.

The intersection is closed and crews will remain on scene until fire is extinguished, officials with Travis County ESD 2 said on its Facebook page. They said fires involving electronic vehicles require different tactics then typical vehicle fires and that many times the best tactic is to let the vehicle burn.

I worked in reinsurance once and one of the most banded about wisecracks was when a woman put a claim in on her wrecked vehicle stating that the lamppost must have moved.
That image kind of reminds me about it.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by RM7

You dont know the difference between a survivable impact/crash and non-survivable then. Airbags, seatbelts, emergency exits, crash structures, fire extinguishers, survival kits, rafts, lifevests, ELTs, etc., all exist because there is a threshold of Gs and forces that define survivable vs non-survivable. Please come back to reality.

LOL, I know a bullshit crash test when I see one.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by gblansten

I had a Tesla certified and well known electrician to us do our two runs. Complete trust in their work as they put in high grade stuff. These cheap Nema 14-50 outlets are not safe for dryers or for welders either. Way too much electricity to go cheap.

Yup this is a known thing, cheap 14-50 outlets most likely will burn out.

I'd go with Hubbell or Bryant.

[Weather Man]

Tesla is cutting rear-wheel-drive Model Y prices by $4,600. The Model Y Long Range and Model Y Performance will see $5,000 price cuts, according to Bloomberg.