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      04-07-2009, 07:35 PM   #67
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It's all about the money. The MX5 and 6 are cheap investments for BMW that they expect to pay back from relatively quickly. None of them will be sold in large enough quantities to sustain a manufacturer the size of BMW. For that they need to sell cars, lots of cars. Whether the M brand retains it marquis status despite being slapped on everything short of toilet paper is all academic if 3 series sales don't rebound. Selling 10,000 vehicles in a few niche markets isn't going to keep them alive.
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      04-07-2009, 08:25 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Oh, I dunno, the cancellation of the CS and a new Z4M come to the top of my mind.... It is also rumored they are dumping specific engines for M cars.....we are just going to get tuned regular BMW engines....

Projects that made the cut.... X5M, X6M and the 5 Series PAV.

You cling to the rumor of an E92 M3 CSL as fact! The fact is we don't know if it was cancelled or even planned to begin with. You cannot make judgements of fact on the basis of internet rumors. And even *if* the CSL was a real car, do you think a specialty car such as the CSL has anywhere near the production and development costs of a full blown production car?

You are a nice guy and seem very intelligent. But on this, you are making all these judgements and accusations based on a mix of rumors and what you think is right.

The facts are a car like the CSL costs near nothing to develop as compared to a full scale production vehicle. In fact, when developing any car, the companies already have the engineering of any submodels built into the car. Its more a question of marketing of when you see the variants released (BMW like to do a 1 year stagger between the E90/E92/M3 -- I hope you don't think it only takes 1 year to actually develop a new car, no they stagger the release of these vehicles by a year, but all three are developed together from the start). In fact with the E46CSL the "major" engineering hurdle for them to overcome was an improved subframe. Hardly a task too difficult for BMW engineers. Most of what they did to create that car was to replace materials with lightweight materials and then work on chassis tuning, where the BMW M group shine.

The "original" E46 CSL was a side project for BMW during a time when BMW had time to greenlight a special project for a car that was not a full production car, and not even available in most markets around the globe. In fact, the only meaning the E46 CSL has to you would be in seeing pictures on the internet (I'm assuming you are from the USA).

As for the Z4M, the last generation Z4 was not to have an M variant either, again it is mostly a marketing decision in order to not undercut the standard Z4 sales. The development and production of the X5 and X6M are now down, if BMW wanted to develop a Z4 M they could turn around and start on that project right now and release the car in another few years. I think the car is actually already been developed, and BMW will release it if and when they believe the market would be ready for such a car.

As for the engines, again another rumor that none of us have any fact on, so we cannot judge what BMW is deciding to do with engines for future M cars. Once we find out, I'm sure we can all make our own educated guesses.
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      04-08-2009, 08:18 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Wouldn't completely agree with that opinion. Prior to the downforce effect the car will feel skittish were as downforce makes it feel planted. Now I can't speak for F1 but I have driven cars which generate huge amounts of downforce and that is my feeling on the matter.
You misunderstand. The key factor with weight is Inertia. How quickly can you make the thing change direction. The downforce incerases pressure on the suspension which will minimize feelings of Skittishnes since everything is planted by the aerodynamic force pushing down on the car. Which helps your tires grip due to the good old friction equation.

Weight however, and that would be the Inertial Mass kind of weight, effects your ability to change direction without the mass of the car still trying to go in a straight line. The more weight you have, the more force the tires need to bare in order to get the car to change direction/go faster/go. Good old Newton's 1st.
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      04-08-2009, 08:46 AM   #70
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Some people just don't understand business - why develop cars into full production if they are not going to sell in this economical climate?
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      04-08-2009, 09:03 AM   #71
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I'm not sure all of the OP's arguements are valid.

BMW going the way of Audi & mercedes? Are they offering only autos now??

Fuel economy not that great? When was it ever "great?" I don't know anyone with an M3 or M5 that would complain about gas consumption.

The fact remains that any BMW is one of the safest cars on the road. If you want a lighter car in weight, there are several other options. If you want a car for performance driving and excitement, the M3 still seems to fit the bill.

BMW has to make money, although the majority of their sales are from non-M vehicles.

Is the new ZR1 the same as a vette from 10, 15, 20 years ago? Hardly.
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      04-08-2009, 09:34 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Eye View Post
You cling to the rumor of an E92 M3 CSL as fact! The fact is we don't know if it was cancelled or even planned to begin with. You cannot make judgements of fact on the basis of internet rumors. And even *if* the CSL was a real car, do you think a specialty car such as the CSL has anywhere near the production and development costs of a full blown production car?

You are a nice guy and seem very intelligent. But on this, you are making all these judgements and accusations based on a mix of rumors and what you think is right.

The facts are a car like the CSL costs near nothing to develop as compared to a full scale production vehicle. In fact, when developing any car, the companies already have the engineering of any submodels built into the car. Its more a question of marketing of when you see the variants released (BMW like to do a 1 year stagger between the E90/E92/M3 -- I hope you don't think it only takes 1 year to actually develop a new car, no they stagger the release of these vehicles by a year, but all three are developed together from the start). In fact with the E46CSL the "major" engineering hurdle for them to overcome was an improved subframe. Hardly a task too difficult for BMW engineers. Most of what they did to create that car was to replace materials with lightweight materials and then work on chassis tuning, where the BMW M group shine.

The "original" E46 CSL was a side project for BMW during a time when BMW had time to greenlight a special project for a car that was not a full production car, and not even available in most markets around the globe. In fact, the only meaning the E46 CSL has to you would be in seeing pictures on the internet (I'm assuming you are from the USA).

As for the Z4M, the last generation Z4 was not to have an M variant either, again it is mostly a marketing decision in order to not undercut the standard Z4 sales. The development and production of the X5 and X6M are now down, if BMW wanted to develop a Z4 M they could turn around and start on that project right now and release the car in another few years. I think the car is actually already been developed, and BMW will release it if and when they believe the market would be ready for such a car.

As for the engines, again another rumor that none of us have any fact on, so we cannot judge what BMW is deciding to do with engines for future M cars. Once we find out, I'm sure we can all make our own educated guesses.

I am talking about the CS Concept and not the CSLs! Additionally, the Z4M is a fine car on the track....rawer than my E46 M3....again no new Z4M.
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      04-08-2009, 03:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW is the new GM. Enjoy the mediocrity.

Try to process some of the arguments above.
lol aww, little T bone getting all defensive! hahhaha.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BForbes View Post
No need for flames. IMHO, you were spot on.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Good point. And actually, I plan on doing just that. The M cars haven't disappeared or anything, there's lots out there for sale and restoration.. with an E30 M3 being top of my list! Meanwhile people can buy the X6/X5M all they want, it won't change my opinion of what I think ///M means.

Exactly, for people that want rawness theres the older M models. They are all there and a know of many people buying e30 m3's because of there feel!

It shouldnt matter to anyone else if othere people are being X6 M just to say "yo dog i got x6, and it be the M model!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I am talking about the CS Concept and not the CSLs! Additionally, the Z4M is a fine car on the track....rawer than my E46 M3....again no new Z4M.
lol YEEE!!! RAWNESS!! ELECTRIC WINDOWS, SMG, TURNING THE CAR ON WITH A BUTTON IS FOR PUSSIES!
WE ARE HARDCORE!
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      04-08-2009, 07:09 PM   #74
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I just spat my drink out all over my computer screne when I read that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam12345 View Post

lol YEEE!!! RAWNESS!! ELECTRIC WINDOWS, SMG, TURNING THE CAR ON WITH A BUTTON IS FOR PUSSIES!
WE ARE HARDCORE!
and while were at it, screw electric starts alltogether. We need to get out and stick that rod in the hole and turn it with out mighty muscles in the rain and the freezing cold just to show that we are men!

gggggrrrrrrr...muscles
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      04-08-2009, 08:15 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaday51 View Post
I just spat my drink out all over my computer screne when I read that.



and while were at it, screw electric starts alltogether. We need to get out and stick that rod in the hole and turn it with out mighty muscles in the rain and the freezing cold just to show that we are men!

gggggrrrrrrr...muscles


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO hahahaa I LITTERALY LOLed when i read that hahahaha
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      04-08-2009, 11:36 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam12345 View Post
lol YEEE!!! RAWNESS!! ELECTRIC WINDOWS, SMG, TURNING THE CAR ON WITH A BUTTON IS FOR PUSSIES!
WE ARE HARDCORE!
LMFAO!
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      04-09-2009, 12:12 AM   #77
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I think the message is that we like progress (Reason we don't live in caves and run around naked) but not wasteful excess and the defamation of an (pure) icon. These stupid SUV's will probably(emphasis) only be as fast as a tuned and modded 135i/335i.

You have to remember that these are the same people that refused to do SUV's for all those years when people bought them by the dozen, who are you fooling by arguing that they need to make money and this would help?. The priorities are different today and the fad is gone. BMW was late to the party and they are going to try and lose with the Aztec and the SUV-that-cant-go-offroad.
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Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      04-09-2009, 11:30 AM   #78
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T-Bone, you're a cool dude, but this is an overreaction. The big trucks needs all that torque so ///M made an engine tailored to the chassis, in typical fashion. I very much doubt the future ///M cars will have torque curves like this. Turbocharged, yes - lifeless at high rpm, no. How many people do you see out there redlining their SUVs on a day to day basis?

Times are tight and BMW needs to make some cash. We can't win them all and it's clear the X5/6 M isn't a car for the purist, but perhaps the purist's wife

Because fuel consumption is now becoming a larger concern, I guarantee we will start seeing lighter ///M cars with some killer turbo technologies that will push the envelope. Give them a chance, if they fail on the next generation then we can start panicking. My money is on BMW, I'll tell you that.
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      04-09-2009, 02:15 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billspreston View Post
T-Bone, you're a cool dude, but this is an overreaction. The big trucks needs all that torque so ///M made an engine tailored to the chassis, in typical fashion. I very much doubt the future ///M cars will have torque curves like this. Turbocharged, yes - lifeless at high rpm, no. How many people do you see out there redlining their SUVs on a day to day basis?

Times are tight and BMW needs to make some cash. We can't win them all and it's clear the X5/6 M isn't a car for the purist, but perhaps the purist's wife

Because fuel consumption is now becoming a larger concern, I guarantee we will start seeing lighter ///M cars with some killer turbo technologies that will push the envelope. Give them a chance, if they fail on the next generation then we can start panicking. My money is on BMW, I'll tell you that.

I hope you are right.
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      04-09-2009, 02:23 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I hope you are right.
T-Bone,

BMWblog.com is saying that the X6-M lapped the ring in less than 8minutes. I'm trying to find something else to back it up!! I thought it wouldnt handle???
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      04-09-2009, 02:35 PM   #81
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Was hoping this day would never come.
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      04-09-2009, 03:33 PM   #82
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T-Bone,

BMWblog.com is saying that the X6-M lapped the ring in less than 8minutes. I'm trying to find something else to back it up!! I thought it wouldnt handle???

Let's see what Sportauto times and the tires after a lap.
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      04-09-2009, 03:40 PM   #83
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You know, the 911 turbo redlines at 6800 and its an icon. High revving NA cars may be done with //M, just means the price of entry is higher > ferrari. Still, a horrible damn shame.
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      04-09-2009, 08:54 PM   #84
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I dont see how making the X5M and X6M would affect the customers with M3s that wanted a sports car
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      04-12-2009, 11:08 PM   #85
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Quote:
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I dont see how making the X5M and X6M would affect the customers with M3s that wanted a sports car
Exactly, why does it matter that BMW decides to use the "M" brand on its SUVs?

The whole thing about "heritage", "blasphemy", and "tradition" is the reason why idealists do not make great CEOs of for-profit companies.

What would you rather have? Would you rather BMW keeps on making vehicles for traditionalists and ignore the rest?

Let's think of it, BMW makes automobiles that only a small percentage of people can really afford. On top of that, there is heavy competition for that slice. Mercedes. Audi. Lexus. Porsche. Heck, even Hyundai. With the economy the way it is, it's safe to say that that slice of pie is going to shrink, not grow Yet the competition is as fierce as it's ever been.

I like the M3, and I don't mind one bit what BMW does with the M brand; even when it is applied for a 2.5 ton SUV. Why? Because if BMW doesn't do what it takes to survive, guess what? NO MORE M3!

The OP's argument is irrational and lacks business sense. He needs to understand that in order to run any company profitably long term, the company must be able to adapt to whatever circumstances that presents itself. Perhaps Porsche had a hit with the Cayenne (I know that I've seen a fair amount of them on the roads), and BMW wants to increase its slice of a small (and shrinking) market. I'm certainly not going to fault them for that.
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      04-13-2009, 12:31 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Hey genious, 5300 pounds, high center of gravity, sucky redline. Enuff said.

I don't care if they sell millions. They are reallocating resources away from sedans, coupes and GTs.

The reason I am not happy is because BMW is arrogant. I have been a customer since the E36 M3 and they are taking my business for granted. They are on this stupid path thinking that their marketing is going to make my eyes glaze over in stupidity.

They are ignoring their loyal customer base, this is the bet they are making by scrimping on development of the cars that we love to chase stupid heavy trucks that don't perform well.

I am pissed at their corporate culture more than the X5M / X6M. On these products, they are going to handle like crap because of their weight. period.
I think the same thing is going to happen to BMW what happened to Mercedes few years ago.
MB now focus on producing SUV for soccer mom's, and the crappy s-class. NO PASSION, NO SOUL, just pure money-making
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      04-13-2009, 04:12 AM   #87
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      04-13-2009, 03:19 PM   #88
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Saw the X6M at the NYIAS. Even uglier in person.
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