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      09-11-2014, 11:39 AM   #89
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I guess that's what 3 more liters and 400lbs less will do. Those Z06 are monsters. I think that ESS 550 and that might have been a good race.
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      09-19-2014, 05:02 PM   #90
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Just got a revised ethanol tune from Benvo.

Bitches be chirping into 3rd.
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      09-19-2014, 10:01 PM   #91
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Details please!
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      09-19-2014, 11:23 PM   #92
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Details please!
+1 Dyno coming soon?!?
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      09-20-2014, 05:36 AM   #93
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Spoiled fuckers. If I get time. I wasn't planning on dynoing again until after I get my new x-pipe on.
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      09-20-2014, 09:53 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by MFL View Post
E in E85 stands for percentage of ethanol.

Ethanol is in most fuels these days, most often the fuel we run is E10 (at least in washington).

I've done a lot of proving that this car can operate with up to 30% ethanol. I spent two days at the track and the car runs like a champ.

I have a feeling that anything over 30% is going to max out your DC's on your injectors though, hence why it will go into limp mode.

Chances are, if you're asking this question, you need to do a bit more research.
I can support this claim of 30%. I haven't gotten back to you on data yet; having bad luck with K-DCAN cables for logging with BMWLogger.
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      09-20-2014, 09:54 AM   #95
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Just got a revised ethanol tune from Benvo.

Bitches beading into 3rd.
interested in knowing more about this as well. Finally a tune to take more advantage of E30!
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      09-21-2014, 10:08 AM   #96
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Hey guys... I've read up on E30 and our vehicle. With the cars normal engine management it is set up for 94 octane fuel. It runs well on 93 and that is where the claimed power output comes from. When running E30 on the stock tune, power output is similar to 93 with potential advantages at high altitudes and/or high ambient temps. Those benefits carry over when compared to 91 plus significantly more power. With an E30 tune, there is even more potential. But I have one concern. I've read that ethanol isn't as stable as regular pump gas... it breaks down faster. Thus E85 pump gas could be as low as E70. If you think you're running E30 based on a full tank of gas... 4.5 gallons of E85 and 12.1 gallons of 91, but the E85 is really E70, then you're really running E25. With a stock tune you just make less power and have some water in the fuel. The water isn't ideal but manageable and the engine is fine. But here's my question... is the engine more at risk if you have a tune for E30 but it ends up being only E25?
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      09-21-2014, 12:17 PM   #97
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That is a good question. I would imagine our sensitive knock control system on our cars would adjust to a lower ignition timing table to avoid issues, just like running 93 octane versus 91 octane. However, I'm not qualified to answer that question because I do not know all of the tables available.
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      09-21-2014, 06:11 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagman View Post
Hey guys... I've read up on E30 and our vehicle. With the cars normal engine management it is set up for 94 octane fuel. It runs well on 93 and that is where the claimed power output comes from. When running E30 on the stock tune, power output is similar to 93 with potential advantages at high altitudes and/or high ambient temps. Those benefits carry over when compared to 91 plus significantly more power. With an E30 tune, there is even more potential. But I have one concern. I've read that ethanol isn't as stable as regular pump gas... it breaks down faster. Thus E85 pump gas could be as low as E70. If you think you're running E30 based on a full tank of gas... 4.5 gallons of E85 and 12.1 gallons of 91, but the E85 is really E70, then you're really running E25. With a stock tune you just make less power and have some water in the fuel. The water isn't ideal but manageable and the engine is fine. But here's my question... is the engine more at risk if you have a tune for E30 but it ends up being only E25?
I guess it depends on how aggressive your tune is. E85 tuners are aware of the margin for error in E85.
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      09-21-2014, 06:12 PM   #99
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Ultimately I will defer to the people that actually tune the cars though.
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      09-21-2014, 07:01 PM   #100
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Ultimately I will defer to the people that actually tune the cars though.
+1
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      09-22-2014, 12:06 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagman View Post
Hey guys... I've read up on E30 and our vehicle. With the cars normal engine management it is set up for 94 octane fuel. It runs well on 93 and that is where the claimed power output comes from. When running E30 on the stock tune, power output is similar to 93 with potential advantages at high altitudes and/or high ambient temps. Those benefits carry over when compared to 91 plus significantly more power. With an E30 tune, there is even more potential. But I have one concern. I've read that ethanol isn't as stable as regular pump gas... it breaks down faster. Thus E85 pump gas could be as low as E70. If you think you're running E30 based on a full tank of gas... 4.5 gallons of E85 and 12.1 gallons of 91, but the E85 is really E70, then you're really running E25. With a stock tune you just make less power and have some water in the fuel. The water isn't ideal but manageable and the engine is fine. But here's my question... is the engine more at risk if you have a tune for E30 but it ends up being only E25?
Ethanol is stable. The problem is with storage over a long period of time as Ethanol is hygroscopic, so it absorbs water from the atmosphere. So is regular gasoline, but an order of magnitude less hydroscopic. If you store your E85 in a sealed barrel or container, it isn't much of a concern. Home Depot gas cans not a good idea. I've had the same E98 55gal barrel since October 2012 and it is still good. If you live in a high humidity environment and you need to store your car for a few months, you can take the conservative route and drain the Ethanol blended gas and replace with a few gallons of regular pump gas. We're talking durations measuring in many months, not days or weeks.

The other concern is summer vs winter blends for E85, the mandated minimum is 70% (winter blend) and summer is usually around 80-83%. The seasonal switch over occurs anytime between September and November and can stay in the underground tanks until mid spring depending on the frequency of users at any particular filling station.

I tuned my Supra for Flex Fuel operation so I can log Ethanol content and I've never seen 85% from the pump, highest was E83, usually E80. (summer time). This weekend I was down in Vegas for the national Supra meet and one station I filled at showed E73 on my content sensor, so it had already switched to winter. Found another station and with a few gallons of E73 left I was able to get up to E79, so that filling station was still on summer blend. I have all my boost and ignition values maxed at E75, so it was important for me to get that extra splash of Eethanol.

For what the M3 community is attempting, the Ethanol content delta is insignificant. If you blend 12gal of E10 with 4gal of E70, your total blend will be E25. If it was a summer blend (E80) and the volume ratio was the same, you'd be at E28. Since both the ignition and fuel trims are in closed loop feedback, there isn't anything to be concerned about. The worst-case scenario is that you reach maximum fuel trim limits in the DME and the car goes into limp mode. Nothing a couple gallons of pump wont remedy. There is no risk to the motor itself.
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      09-22-2014, 02:18 PM   #102
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Unless you give it too much ethanol and fill the rest up with pump, then have to drive a 20-30 miles in limp mode, haha.

Great write up.
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      09-22-2014, 10:25 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Hagen View Post
Ethanol is stable. The problem is with storage over a long period of time as Ethanol is hygroscopic, so it absorbs water from the atmosphere. So is regular gasoline, but an order of magnitude less hydroscopic. If you store your E85 in a sealed barrel or container, it isn't much of a concern. Home Depot gas cans not a good idea. I've had the same E98 55gal barrel since October 2012 and it is still good. If you live in a high humidity environment and you need to store your car for a few months, you can take the conservative route and drain the Ethanol blended gas and replace with a few gallons of regular pump gas. We're talking durations measuring in many months, not days or weeks.

The other concern is summer vs winter blends for E85, the mandated minimum is 70% (winter blend) and summer is usually around 80-83%. The seasonal switch over occurs anytime between September and November and can stay in the underground tanks until mid spring depending on the frequency of users at any particular filling station.

I tuned my Supra for Flex Fuel operation so I can log Ethanol content and I've never seen 85% from the pump, highest was E83, usually E80. (summer time). This weekend I was down in Vegas for the national Supra meet and one station I filled at showed E73 on my content sensor, so it had already switched to winter. Found another station and with a few gallons of E73 left I was able to get up to E79, so that filling station was still on summer blend. I have all my boost and ignition values maxed at E75, so it was important for me to get that extra splash of Eethanol.

For what the M3 community is attempting, the Ethanol content delta is insignificant. If you blend 12gal of E10 with 4gal of E70, your total blend will be E25. If it was a summer blend (E80) and the volume ratio was the same, you'd be at E28. Since both the ignition and fuel trims are in closed loop feedback, there isn't anything to be concerned about. The worst-case scenario is that you reach maximum fuel trim limits in the DME and the car goes into limp mode. Nothing a couple gallons of pump wont remedy. There is no risk to the motor itself.
Good post. Thanks for the info. Any advice on how many tanks of E10/E85 blend to run before going with a regular tank of E10 + Techron to clean up the system a bit?
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      09-22-2014, 10:39 PM   #104
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Thank you M.Hagen. Very informative post .
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      09-22-2014, 10:40 PM   #105
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Quote:
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Good post. Thanks for the info. Any advice on how many tanks of E10/E85 blend to run before going with a regular tank of E10 + Techron to clean up the system a bit?
+1
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      09-23-2014, 12:26 AM   #106
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I don't think it really matters. Clean up what exactly?
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      09-23-2014, 10:23 AM   #107
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Quote:
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You answered your own question.
Thanks, I figured but didn't know for sure.

And sorry for another noob question, but is it really a big performance difference using E85 vs 93 octane?
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      09-23-2014, 05:07 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Good post. Thanks for the info. Any advice on how many tanks of E10/E85 blend to run before going with a regular tank of E10 + Techron to clean up the system a bit?
A point of clarification, the Ethanol blended fuel will actually clean the tank and fuel components better than regular "pump" gasoline. So much so that older cars that convert to Ethanol blends can actually damage their fuel injectors because the old 'gunk' gets loosened clogs the system when E85 is ran.

If you examine a piston or intake/exhaust valve that has been removed from a motor running E85, they're pretty damn clean... significantly more clean than what you would find from a pump-gas motor.

The most likely failure mode on a new fuel system with high ethanol content blends is with the injector valve components. If your ethanol blended fuel has sat for a while and has absorbed any water (high humidity environment), the water can cause the valve components, which are usually high-iron content steel, to rust. Rust can cause the valves to stick closed if unused for many months, or even worse is to not open as much as they are commanded by the DME, causing a lean condition.

I am not certain what the valve component makeup is on an S65 injector. Some OEM injectors have stainless valve components, which negates any rust concerns. Injector Dynamics offers an injector with stainless valve components (ID1300). However, I've been running ID2000's for about 2 years now, almost entirely on high Ethanol blends (E85-E90), and for safety I run a tank of pump through every couple months. Keep in mind my Supra only gets driven a few time a month, and even at those driving intervals and high ethanol content, my injectors are still clean even though the ID2000's have the risky high-iron based steel valving.

At the end of the day though, I don't think an E25-E30 blend is enough to bother yourself with these concerns. It is still predominantly pump gas. The only real negatives when discussing Ethanol blends (IMHO) is the minor fuel consumption penalty and availability.
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      09-23-2014, 10:38 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFL View Post
I don't think it really matters. Clean up what exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Hagen View Post
A point of clarification, the Ethanol blended fuel will actually clean the tank and fuel components better than regular "pump" gasoline. So much so that older cars that convert to Ethanol blends can actually damage their fuel injectors because the old 'gunk' gets loosened clogs the system when E85 is ran.

If you examine a piston or intake/exhaust valve that has been removed from a motor running E85, they're pretty damn clean... significantly more clean than what you would find from a pump-gas motor.

The most likely failure mode on a new fuel system with high ethanol content blends is with the injector valve components. If your ethanol blended fuel has sat for a while and has absorbed any water (high humidity environment), the water can cause the valve components, which are usually high-iron content steel, to rust. Rust can cause the valves to stick closed if unused for many months, or even worse is to not open as much as they are commanded by the DME, causing a lean condition.

I am not certain what the valve component makeup is on an S65 injector. Some OEM injectors have stainless valve components, which negates any rust concerns. Injector Dynamics offers an injector with stainless valve components (ID1300). However, I've been running ID2000's for about 2 years now, almost entirely on high Ethanol blends (E85-E90), and for safety I run a tank of pump through every couple months. Keep in mind my Supra only gets driven a few time a month, and even at those driving intervals and high ethanol content, my injectors are still clean even though the ID2000's have the risky high-iron based steel valving.

At the end of the day though, I don't think an E25-E30 blend is enough to bother yourself with these concerns. It is still predominantly pump gas. The only real negatives when discussing Ethanol blends (IMHO) is the minor fuel consumption penalty and availability.
It was always my understanding that ethanol could leave a residue on the injectors. This seems to be a common impression on boards dedicated to the N54/N55 engines where E85 use is more common. (I also have an N54-equipped Z4.) An example of this sentiment in the M3 context can be found here. (Though you might be excused for considering the source of that information.)

I had heard differing opinions as to whether E85 left residue or not, but this is the first I'd heard that, possible rust aside, it actually cleans the injectors better than E10 pump gas. Very interesting if true.

In any event, it sounds like it's probably not a bad idea to run a tank of E10 pump gas through the system every now and again, preferably with a fuel that includes Techron.
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