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      10-31-2013, 02:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dr335is
Those saying we have the best system and top notch healthcare have either never used an outside healthcare or get their info from the Fox News. Our healthcare system/ insurance is a pure business and not a "care". It should offer services better than any other as it charges 20x normal places do. $18k for the baby delivery where my wife spent exactly 23 hours in the hospital!! $1400 for a 3-month old check up and 4 shots!!! $700 for 3 tooth fillings!!!

The system here is insanely overpriced and driven by medical and pharmaceutical cartel.

My family is insured, however, to the OPs point - 15% of uninsured is "only" 50M Americans!!

I have lived in Europe and Asia and have seen their services and prices. My copayment in Europe was $2 and the hospitals and services were very much on-par with what I see in Dallas. On one business trips to Taipei, I got food poisoning, the doctor was called to my room, have me 3-4 shots and a bag of pills. Showed up the next day to my hotel room for the follow up and 2 more shots. My room was billed $90.

A friend of mine (visitor to the US) had a car accident and spent a few days in a hospital recovering with a few broken bones. He received a bill of $160k!!!, left the country and never returned.

Taxes: sales tax, property tax, income tax (wife and 3 kids claimed) some states with state tax, 401k, kids college fund -> easily 50% of salary gone...
So if you are insured, you didn't pay $18k for your baby. And neither did your insurance company. If the Dr. that treated you in your hotel screwed up, you could sue his pants off in the US. and while you paid $90 for that treatment, some poor taxpayer covered the rest.

There are many flaws in your conclusions. And that's not coming from Fox News...
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      10-31-2013, 02:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dr335is View Post
Those saying we have the best system and top notch healthcare have either never used an outside healthcare or get their info from the Fox News. Our healthcare system/ insurance is a pure business and not a "care". It should offer services better than any other as it charges 20x normal places do. $18k for the baby delivery where my wife spent exactly 23 hours in the hospital!! $1400 for a 3-month old check up and 4 shots!!! $700 for 3 tooth fillings!!!

The system here is insanely overpriced and driven by medical and pharmaceutical cartel.

My family is insured, however, to the OPs point - 15% of uninsured is "only" 50M Americans!!

I have lived in Europe and Asia and have seen their services and prices. My copayment in Europe was $2 and the hospitals and services were very much on-par with what I see in Dallas. On one business trips to Taipei, I got food poisoning, the doctor was called to my room, have me 3-4 shots and a bag of pills. Showed up the next day to my hotel room for the follow up and 2 more shots. My room was billed $90.

A friend of mine (visitor to the US) had a car accident and spent a few days in a hospital recovering with a few broken bones. He received a bill of $160k!!!, left the country and never returned.

Taxes: sales tax, property tax, income tax (wife and 3 kids claimed) some states with state tax, 401k, kids college fund -> easily 50% of salary gone...
The bolded statement is far, far from truth.

The system is largely driven by health insurance.

Pharmacuitcals can't force a Dr. to prescribe them. But the insurance companies are like Dr. Jeckel & Mr. Hyde. They get the Docs to join by telling them about how they will be included in their vast network which will fill their practice. They do the same with hospitals as well. Then Mr. Hyde pops out with the fine print as they decide not to cover this and that when the Docs and hospitals bill the ins company. So the Docs and Hospitals get creative, cause they're not very smart in a business sense and jack up the prices. If they bill $100 and the ins pays $33, the Docs and Hospitals are now going to bill $300. This is why it's $18k to have a kid. But if you don't have insurance, the hospital will gladly, in almost every instance, drop that fee to $6k.


We recently switched plans because my premium to renew the same plan increased by 19% in 12 months. And on the surface, this plan was very similar with regards to coverage. The out of pocket limit was increased slightly but that was it.

Now i have to basically tell the Docs how to code the bill or the ins company won't pay.

I just figured out yesterday that since i've started working, i've spent $102,000 on health insurance. I've only had one hospital stay for an appendectomy. And they tried to get out of paying for most of that as well. I'd be $93k better off had i self insured all these years.

You wanna complain about health care in the US? Complain about the insurance companies.
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      10-31-2013, 03:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
You wanna complain about health care in the US? Complain about the insurance companies.
Yep. I tried to buy my own insurance before and was rejected due to a pre-existing condition. I have coverage now, but back then it made me go WTF. They said I had to be symptom free for 5 years when my condition is chronic and I take meds daily.
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      10-31-2013, 04:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
So if you are insured, you didn't pay $18k for your baby. And neither did your insurance company. If the Dr. that treated you in your hotel screwed up, you could sue his pants off in the US. and while you paid $90 for that treatment, some poor taxpayer covered the rest.

There are many flaws in your conclusions. And that's not coming from Fox News...
Comes back to business and $$$ in your mind instead of CARE.
That is a big difference.
And you are a 100% sure that patients over there have no rights in case something goes wrong??

No, I did not pay $18k, I paid $3k per my insurance deductible. In 90% of other countries the delivery that took 21 hours of $15/hr nurse time and <2hr of doctor time would not cost $3k.
This was just an (personal) example, many more much worse cases...

Why does the stress test cost $3800?? What can go wrong there?
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      10-31-2013, 08:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
The bolded statement is far, far from truth.

The system is largely driven by health insurance.

Pharmacuitcals can't force a Dr. to prescribe them. But the insurance companies are like Dr. Jeckel & Mr. Hyde. They get the Docs to join by telling them about how they will be included in their vast network which will fill their practice. They do the same with hospitals as well. Then Mr. Hyde pops out with the fine print as they decide not to cover this and that when the Docs and hospitals bill the ins company. So the Docs and Hospitals get creative, cause they're not very smart in a business sense and jack up the prices. If they bill $100 and the ins pays $33, the Docs and Hospitals are now going to bill $300. This is why it's $18k to have a kid. But if you don't have insurance, the hospital will gladly, in almost every instance, drop that fee to $6k.

You wanna complain about health care in the US? Complain about the insurance companies.
But... if they jack up the prices, the insurance companies will simply negotiate a lower contract that's more in-line with market prices. So it does them no good to jack up the prices.

Agree about negotiating a lower price for the uninsured - happens all the time.

I've spent about $45k in auto insurance over the past 10 years, and not claimed on it (much), but it was there if I had needed it. That's the "gamble" of insurance, of course. But I couldn't just wait to purchase insurance until I crashed the car - which is what Obamacare allows, and why the premiums are going through the roof right about now.

If you want to complain about healthcare in the US, complain about the Lawyers, and the politicians.
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      10-31-2013, 08:57 PM   #50
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But... if they jack up the prices, the insurance companies will simply negotiate a lower contract that's more in-line with market prices. So it does them no good to jack up the prices.

Agree about negotiating a lower price for the uninsured - happens all the time.

I've spent about $45k in auto insurance over the past 10 years, and not claimed on it (much), but it was there if I had needed it. That's the "gamble" of insurance, of course. But I couldn't just wait to purchase insurance until I crashed the car - which is what Obamacare allows, and why the premiums are going through the roof right about now.

If you want to complain about healthcare in the US, complain about the Lawyers, and the politicians.
True enough, the high costs of health care stems from Insurance companies, the insurance company issue is a result of the politicians and lawyers.

I'm glad my agent suggested switching us to a 12/1 renewal instead of 1/1. At least we'll have 11 months to test the waters before renewing in the madness.
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      10-31-2013, 09:11 PM   #51
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Comes back to business and $$$ in your mind instead of CARE.
That is a big difference.
And you are a 100% sure that patients over there have no rights in case something goes wrong??

No, I did not pay $18k, I paid $3k per my insurance deductible. In 90% of other countries the delivery that took 21 hours of $15/hr nurse time and <2hr of doctor time would not cost $3k.
This was just an (personal) example, many more much worse cases...

Why does the stress test cost $3800?? What can go wrong there?
Actually, I was just responding to your issues regarding cost, so I didn't address care. Some thoughts on your post:

-In other countries you can sue, but if you lose, you have to pay your court costs and theirs. So attorneys don't take contingency lawsuits. And most people can't afford to hire a lawyer out-of-pocket, against a corporation of any kind.
-Would you go to 5 years of college and nursing school, to make $15/hr?
-The Doctor must be available for all 21 hours of the delivery, whether in the room or not. How much of that $3K do you think s/he takes home, after paying malpractice insurance, business costs, etc.? Average income for an ObGyn is $220k/yr. That's after 10 years of school, and several hundred thousands of debt.
-If you have a cardiac event or something else during the stress test, whom do you think is liable? I get class-action lawsuit solicitations all the time, as well as see them on TV/Radio. The "class" gets virtually nothing, but the attorneys get rich - who do you think pays for all of that? It's especially burdensome in the healthcare world.

Here's an interesting document from Canada, showing wait times for various health issues across the country:

http://www.gov.nl.ca/HaveYouHeard/wta.pdf

If you needed a hip replacement, the Canadian government thinks a 6 month wait is acceptable, and most of the Provinces don't make that goal. Would you be willing to wait that long? Would you wait 3 months to get pain relief from a herniated disc in your back? Would you wait 6 months for a Coronary bypass operation? 4 months for skin cancer treatment? And if you didn't like it, to whom would you complain?
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      10-31-2013, 09:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Actually, I was just responding to your issues regarding cost, so I didn't address care. Some thoughts on your post:

-In other countries you can sue, but if you lose, you have to pay your court costs and theirs. So attorneys don't take contingency lawsuits. And most people can't afford to hire a lawyer out-of-pocket, against a corporation of any kind.
-Would you go to 5 years of college and nursing school, to make $15/hr?
-The Doctor must be available for all 21 hours of the delivery, whether in the room or not. How much of that $3K do you think s/he takes home, after paying malpractice insurance, business costs, etc.? Average income for an ObGyn is $220k/yr. That's after 10 years of school, and several hundred thousands of debt.
-If you have a cardiac event or something else during the stress test, whom do you think is liable? I get class-action lawsuit solicitations all the time, as well as see them on TV/Radio. The "class" gets virtually nothing, but the attorneys get rich - who do you think pays for all of that? It's especially burdensome in the healthcare world.

Here's an interesting document from Canada, showing wait times for various health issues across the country:

http://www.gov.nl.ca/HaveYouHeard/wta.pdf

If you needed a hip replacement, the Canadian government thinks a 6 month wait is acceptable, and most of the Provinces don't make that goal. Would you be willing to wait that long? Would you wait 3 months to get pain relief from a herniated disc in your back? Would you wait 6 months for a Coronary bypass operation? 4 months for skin cancer treatment? And if you didn't like it, to whom would you complain?
Do you really believe if you're no insured you would be able to get that cancer treatment or a bypass any sooner? I know many older Canadians that did have most of the procedures you mentioned and have had very positive experiences.

My first child was born before the doctor ever made it to the hospital and a nurese delivered her. We did not see the doctor till 3 hours after it was over. So, no, the doctor did not wait 24 hours around the delivery.

I cannot comment on the legal process however, I doubt ours is so superior over the rest of the world...
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      10-31-2013, 11:27 PM   #53
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Do you really believe if you're no insured you would be able to get that cancer treatment or a bypass any sooner? I know many older Canadians that did have most of the procedures you mentioned and have had very positive experiences.

My first child was born before the doctor ever made it to the hospital and a nurese delivered her. We did not see the doctor till 3 hours after it was over. So, no, the doctor did not wait 24 hours around the delivery.

I cannot comment on the legal process however, I doubt ours is so superior over the rest of the world...
But I am insured, as is the vast majority of the population. I also know Canadians that died because they couldn't be seen by a specialist in time (5 month wait to see a specialist to diagnose testicular cancer).

I can't imagine a scenario where you went to a hospital, and there was no physician to attend the birth of your child. If the doctor didn't show for the delivery, then I would have challenged their bill.

I'm not saying our legal system is superior - but it is very different than the rest of the world, with our contingency-based lawsuits. Here's a good wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_re...#United_States
It also talks about the costs of defensive medicine, in the Tort Reform discussion.
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      11-03-2013, 12:11 AM   #54
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1) Health insurance isn't really health insurance. It should be there to cover disasters and not general health care. It'd be like expecting your car insurance to cover basic maintenance and repair rather than accidents. Consequently, people don't give a whit about how much their health care actually costs. There are no market forces to drive the costs down. Nobody is turned around in an ER, and we all cover those costs as well.
Thats actually a really interesting analogy... I like it.
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