Car and Driver is, "Not crazy about the new M3."

[FogCityM3]

You look at the comments section in C&D, MT, Evo, on FB, Jalop, YouTube, name the publication/blog, etc. The perception on the new cars is quite negative due largely to the N/A abandonment and renaming and also I believe, whiffing it on the M5 and base 3 series didn't help either. With consumer products, a lot of times perception = reality no matter what objective/on paper data says.

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

An auto mag that for decades has had to deal with stones being lobbed at it because it was perceived as biased in favor of BMW is now in for a massive amount of stick from people who think C&D is poo-pooing on BMW, and more to the point, the F8x model. Nothing could be farther from the truth or reality. Anyone thinking C&D is suddenly hating BMW or ///M models on an anything less than substance basis is a noob to the automotive world.

[Richbot]

Been reading C/D since the mid 90's and it was pretty clear F10 and F30 were turning points in C/D's eyes for the BMW brand. It's clear they don't think the core models are the segment leaders they once were and their opinion of all the fruit of those two trees has been less glowing than in the past. I can't say I disagree with them. There are still gems in the model line and I think the M cars count as some of them, but the fun that is infused, for instance, in the basest of base Mazda rental cars to this very day, is missing from most BMW's. IMO this backslide started with the E90, because I liked the base E60's I drove. The difference between my E46 328 and an E90 328 was striking in the fun to drive category. The E90 was saved from fun-to-drive mediocrity by the N54 and M3's, the 335 was just so overpoweringly better than its competitors, and the M3 so close to perfection, that the disturbing trend was obscured somewhat.

That kind of ball-dropping can't help but put a slant on the good ones just by sheer force of guilt by association, ignoring whatever legitimate gripes there are about whatever model they're reviewing

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

What are the 3 series competitors? Or what are the M3's and M4's competitors?

I expected you to provide them since you stated it is heavy. You must have compared it to something?

I'd compare to MB, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus competitors in this segment. My guess is that BMW 3 series has been and continues to be relatively "light".

I do consider 3700 lbs (BMW's listed weight) as heavy...compare to a corvette or a 911, for example.

Agreed it is heavier, but I'd say fairly close considering the difference in purpose and structure. I bet M3 is closer in weight to 911 than to CTS-V.

That added weight and low torque make a lot of difference off the line, coming out of a corner, etc. Others like the C63 have a much larger V8 making a lot more torque.

Not sure why this even comes up like this. The ONLY measure that matters is HP. But let's take that one to it's own thread.

I definitely understand what you are saying, but it is what it is. This is the engine. It's very good. I know it's not what some wanted, but that can't be changed.

It can change. They just changed TO this engine. Perhaps in a few years, they'll make a better decision in response to consumer demand.

[Law]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

You, of course have a right to your opinion, but to say that the F8X is just a glorified 335/435 is extremely misinformed. Anyone that knows anything about the S55 motor and the F8X chassis, suspension, drivetrain, etc. knows that is not even close to being true. I guess by your definition, an E46 M3 was just a glorified 330i or a E36 M3 was just a glorified 325. Again, you have a right to your misinformed opinion.

Anyone that thinks that the S55 is nothing but a 435i engine can read here for the truth.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893611

Actually, you'd be wrong.

Firstly, the S54 in the E46 M3 was not even loosely related to the M54 in the 330i. In fact, the S54 is the final evolution of the S50 EURO motor from the European E36 M3, which itself was an independent motor development by M GmbH.

Second, the thread you linked has information that was later proven to be incorrect. Initial speculations/rumors have been largely proven to be incorrect.
The S55 shares not only the exact displacement as the N55 (2979cc) but also the same bore and stroke.
Even the compression ratios (10.2:1) are identical.

This info is courtesy of BMW themselves.

M4 Specs

435i Specs

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Law

Actually, you'd be wrong.

Firstly, the S54 in the E46 M3 was not even loosely related to the M54 in the 330i. In fact, the S54 is the final evolution of the S50 EURO motor from the European E36 M3, which itself was an independent motor development by M GmbH.

Second, the thread you linked has information that was later proven to be incorrect. Initial speculations/rumors have been largely proven to be incorrect.
The S55 shares not only the exact displacement as the N55 (2979cc) but also the same bore and stroke.
Even the compression ratios (10.2:1) are identical.

This info is courtesy of BMW themselves.

M4 Specs

435i Specs

I don't dispute any of your points, but they don't address the key issue: the S55 performs exactly as you'd expect a tuned N55 to perform: same general powerband / Rev range, just bumped up.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I expected you to provide them since you stated it is heavy. You must have compared it to something?

I'd compare to MB, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus competitors in this segment. My guess is that BMW 3 series has been and continues to be relatively "light".




Agreed it is heavier, but I'd say fairly close considering the difference in purpose and structure. I bet M3 is closer in weight to 911 than to CTS-V.




Not sure why this even comes up like this. The ONLY measure that matters is HP. But let's take that one to it's own thread.




It can change. They just changed TO this engine. Perhaps in a few years, they'll make a better decision in response to consumer demand.

+1

I don't understand people who say it's pointless to complain, the more complain BMW will have, the higher the chance that BMW will bring back an engine worthy of the M badge.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

+1

I don't understand people who say it's pointless to complain, the more complain BMW will have, the higher the chance that BMW will bring back an engine worthy of the M badge.

What does it mean to be "worthy of the M badge" when the badge itself is worthless? You can get like 27 of them on the entriest of the entry models.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

+1

I don't understand people who say it's pointless to complain, the more complain BMW will have, the higher the chance that BMW will bring back an engine worthy of the M badge.

Well my point there was that the engine is already set for this car, so complaining won't turn back time and make them go in a different direction. Will they do something different later in the model cycle? It's possible as a special edition. Or next generation? That's a good 7 years away.

And I'd bet there are a lot of people (outside of this forum, where many of those complaining were first time BMW or M buyers with the e9x M3) that feel the S55 is an engine worthy of an M badge. I'd bet the percentage is much higher in people that have actually driven the car.

[M3AG]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

...Will they do something different later in the model cycle? It's possible as a special edition. Or next generation? That's a good 7 years away....

The next gen M3 might be something similar to i8. Maybe a 2L turbo (~350HP) + electric (~250HP) & 400-500 Lbs lighter.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3AG

The next gen M3 might be something similar to i8. Maybe a 2L turbo (~350HP) + electric (~250HP) & 400-500 Lbs lighter.

Will not make more than 1 lap at track?

[M3AG]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Will not make more than 1 lap at track?

Well, according to EU's auto fuel guideline for 2020 (next gen M3) should be around 6.3 l/100 km or about 44.8 MPG! BMW have to create a hybrid M3 like Nisaan R36-GTR.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3AG

Well, according to EU's auto fuel guideline for 2020 (next gen M3) should be around 6.3 l/100 km or about 44.8 MPG! BMW have to create a hybrid M3 like Nisaan R36-GTR.

Sounds good let's see how that pans out.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by M3AG

Well, according to EU's auto fuel guideline for 2020 (next gen M3) should be around 6.3 l/100 km or about 44.8 MPG! BMW have to create a hybrid M3 like Nisaan R36-GTR.

i am probably going to stop loving cars slowly as time goes on. its simply depressing where engines are going.

I cant ever see my self really liking a electric motor. no matter how fast it is.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i am probably going to stop loving cars slowly as time goes on. its simply depressing where engines are going.

I cant ever see my self really liking a electric motor. no matter how fast it is.

Feel the same. Forced induction and electric power. Yes, depressing indeed. As if it weren't depressing enough thinking about the killing of MT. There aren't going to be many true enthusiast cars on the road soon enough.

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Yeah, the E46 only had 50k miles on it too

Back over to F82 forum please!

[M3AG]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i am probably going to stop loving cars slowly as time goes on. its simply depressing where engines are going.

I cant ever see my self really liking a electric motor. no matter how fast it is.

Same here.

[z3papa]

Some day 30 years down the road, someone is going to find an E92 M3 in a barn where it sat for 10 years without being driven, covered in dust, and wonder how they can get it to run as there will be no gas stations or fuel to drive it with. While I don't think we'll be out of fossil fuels by then, I foresee the days are coming when V8's will die due to CAFE requirements for all but the largest of trucks.

[bimmerfrk]

Drove the new M4 while getting an oil change.

New car is fast BUT it has lost its soul. Interior feels cheap. The worst part is the steering. i Cant feel anything in this car.

Why did BMW just not put a small turbo on the S65 and tune for better MPGs.

So yea power is there just what the fuck do i do with it if i cant feel the car?

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Richbot

IMO this backslide started with the E90, because I liked the base E60's I drove. The difference between my E46 328 and an E90 328 was striking in the fun to drive category. The E90 was saved from fun-to-drive mediocrity by the N54 and M3's, the 335 was just so overpoweringly better than its competitors, and the M3 so close to perfection, that the disturbing trend was obscured somewhat.

I'd have to agree with this point. My 2002 E46 330ci definitely had a joy to driving that probably really made me the BMW enthusiast that I am, and really just had a spirit that my later owned E92 335xi lacked. The 335xi was a nice car (and possibly a bit weighed down/muted by the AWD), but with the turbos, it was just put your foot down and go, but it lacked that something that made the 330ci so fun to drive. My first test drive of the E90 M3, and I felt it back.

One thing I think some of newer F80 owners might not realize is that a not insignificant portion of the E9x M owners upgraded from the 335, precisely because of the difference in the engines, and wanting to get that NA feeling (again). I know I did, and don't particularly want to go back. For the first year or so, it was a lot of fun, kind of like you had rocket boosters strapped on or the hand of god was pushing, then it kind of just became "eh". I know the engines are not the same, but it's not the power as much as the delivery that you just can't easily get away from.

[Richbot]

xDrive ruins BMW's, IMO. E90 335i was great fun thanks to finally having real power, but the 335xi we owned was a buzzkill around corners. My wife's E90 335xi was approximately 175lb heavier than my E90 M3 with the same fuel load, and the stupid decision not to offer a sport suspension option on the xi's really sealed the deal. Audi gets this right, BMW doesn't, but xDrive sells cars.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrk

Drove the new M4 while getting an oil change.

New car is fast BUT it has lost its soul. Interior feels cheap. The worst part is the steering. i Cant feel anything in this car.

Why did BMW just not put a small turbo on the S65 and tune for better MPGs.

So yea power is there just what the fuck do i do with it if i cant feel the car?

Could not disagree more with the above points. F8x has lots of soul. Will most people think the E9x has better sound? Yes. But the interior of the F8x is much nicer looking, looks and feels higher quality, and the tech is light years beyond.

Steering? This has been way overblown. Like Chris Harris said in his review - barely perceptible change in steering feel - and BTW - the new steering is definitely more precise.

As to "why BMW did not just put a small turbo on the S65 and tune for better MPG's?" I don't know - I'm not an engineer. Are you?

As a former E9x owner - I absolutely adored that car - still do even though I don't have it anymore. But this overblown, F8x has no soul is utter nonsense. Notwithstanding whatever negative comments the F8x has received in the automotive press - don't forget that at least a couple of magazines have even proclaimed the F8x as "the best M product in years."

Oh - and fun to drive? Hell yes - anyone who thinks the F8x is "numb" or "has no soul" ought to take one to the track and I guarantee you that you will not feel that way anymore... The E9x was an incredibly fun car - but so is the F8x...

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Law

Actually, you'd be wrong.

Firstly, the S54 in the E46 M3 was not even loosely related to the M54 in the 330i. In fact, the S54 is the final evolution of the S50 EURO motor from the European E36 M3, which itself was an independent motor development by M GmbH.

Second, the thread you linked has information that was later proven to be incorrect. Initial speculations/rumors have been largely proven to be incorrect.
The S55 shares not only the exact displacement as the N55 (2979cc) but also the same bore and stroke.
Even the compression ratios (10.2:1) are identical.

This info is courtesy of BMW themselves.

M4 Specs

435i Specs

OK - let's get some more facts down here...

The S55 is largely based upon the N55 - true.

HOWEVER, the differences are much greater than anyone on these E9x forums is willing to admit. Differences include:

1) Revision of cylinder head gasket allowing for higher coolant flow rate;
2) totally new closed deck design crankcase vs. N55;
3) crankshaft new design and 4 lbs lighter than N55's crankshaft;
4) piston and wrist pins entirely new design vs. N55;
5) cylinder walls LDS arc-spray coated instead of cylinder liners on N55 - also resulting in 5 lb. weight savings vs. corresponding components on N55;
6) two monoscroll turbochargers vs. one turbocharger on N55;
7) new air intake duct vs. N55;
8) new exhaust system vs. N55
9) new heat shields vs. N55
10) new high pressure double pump vs. N55
11) new cooling system vs. N55

Bottom Line - the above changes show a lot of brand-new HARDWARE changes - to say that the S55 is basically a "tuned" N55 couldn't be further from the truth (a "tuned" engine is where the ECU is reprogrammed or piggybacked while keeping the hardware the same). The 11 changes above couldn't, even under the most liberal definition of "tuned," be characterized as such. By saying that the S55 and N55 both have 3.0 liter displacement (2979 cc), same bore, same stroke and same compression ratio - great. That still doesn't change the at least 11 brand new, unique hardware changes identified above...

So - is the S55 as "bespoke" or "unique" as the S65? Of course not! Is the S65 indeed a great engine? Of course it is!! But geez people - at least try to separate your "emotional" preference for the S65 from objective facts...