[NorCalAthlete]

I was having this convo at the meetup over the weekend and the CSL thread got me thinking about it again.

Starting points:

- BMW is trending towards bigger and boxier SUV / crossover styles (XM, for example) though the 3 series is still king
- Ford is spinning off (or looking to spin off) the Mustang brand as a separate entity
- Chevy may follow with Corvette, and are making a "Corvette" SUV ala Urus
- Porsche sort of led the charge with the Cayenne / Macan, but now everyone is doing it
- at the same time, Chevy basically said they switched to a mid engine layout because they had squeezed everything they could out of the previous front engine, RWD layout performance-wise

So. BMW.

IF the trend continues towards SUVs, and IF BMW decides they've gotten everything they can out of the layout / platform after the M4 CS / CSL / M3 CS etc....might they decide to switch to a mid engine layout?

Something like a larger i8, with a hybrid straight 6 twin turbo, and xDrive.

Discuss.

[chicagofan00]

I don’t think BMW has squeezed all they can out of the current M3/M4 platform, at least not to the point of switching up to a mid-engine type of platform instead of doing electric. Their next move will either be some type of mild hybrid setup or go full send on electric and have an official M3/4 EV.

[Psychos1s]

Originally Posted by chicagofan00

I don’t think BMW has squeezed all they can out of the current M3/M4 platform, at least not to the point of switching up to a mid-engine type of platform instead of doing electric. Their next move will either be some type of mild hybrid setup or go full send on electric and have an official M3/4 EV.

I agree. I think the next 3 series M car will be an EV. Maybe a hybrid to start but depends on their testing. Don't forget BMW is testing that "Quad-Motor BMW M EV". I can only imagine the potential it has based on that teaser of it spinning in place (that was fake). (56sec mark)

One reason out of many that I purchased the G80 M3 was because I believe it will be the last gas powered M3/M4.

[NorCalAthlete]

I went with the '23 G82 as the last gas one before ID8. I plan on keeping this one to 100k+ miles, but who knows.

If they came out with a mid-engine layout supercar style M4...I'd be sorely tempted to switch instead of keeping my current M4.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

I went with the '23 G82 as the last gas one before ID8. I plan on keeping this one to 100k+ miles, but who knows.

If they came out with a mid-engine layout supercar style M4...I'd be sorely tempted to switch instead of keeping my current M4.

BMW is not making a gas powered mid-engined M4. As far as the EV M cars go, i think they will be laidout in such a way where the battery is on the floor, and the weight distribution starts to trend back toward 50/50 instead of 55/45 (Where the M4 CSL currently is).

But i made this point in the other thread, BMW is not making mid-engined supercars.

M3 CS/M4 CSL/M5 CS and next coming M2s are the BMW swan songs for ICE. New M5 will be special, but hybrid. Everything else going Neue Klasse EV.

[M4ord]

Dont forget all these vendors will make the decsion based on percevied market. When looking at the current EV market the growth potential is so large it cant be quantified. However, within the last 12-18 months, and this is purely my observations, we have started to see the limits of the support infrastructure both energy delivery at charging stations, and with building them as well. Examples would be limits on precious metals in quantity, geopolotical issues where these mines are located, and now we are starting to see images and videos of people working these mines. The underlying infrastrucure is not as robust as the EV proponoents think it is.

My point being is that the industry as a whole is full throttle into the EV space because of a perceived market that is slowly waking up the the fact that having a 100% EV future is unsustainable. I think this will cause all the vendors to re-evaulate thier future plans. True ICE engines might might not be dead. Just my opinion.

[RTC3000]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

I was having this convo at the meetup over the weekend and the CSL thread got me thinking about it again.

Starting points:

- BMW is trending towards bigger and boxier SUV / crossover styles (XM, for example) though the 3 series is still king
- Ford is spinning off (or looking to spin off) the Mustang brand as a separate entity
- Chevy may follow with Corvette, and are making a "Corvette" SUV ala Urus
- Porsche sort of led the charge with the Cayenne / Macan, but now everyone is doing it
- at the same time, Chevy basically said they switched to a mid engine layout because they had squeezed everything they could out of the previous front engine, RWD layout performance-wise

So. BMW.

IF the trend continues towards SUVs, and IF BMW decides they've gotten everything they can out of the layout / platform after the M4 CS / CSL / M3 CS etc....might they decide to switch to a mid engine layout?

Something like a larger i8, with a hybrid straight 6 twin turbo, and xDrive.

Discuss.

Simple direction: EVs only from some point on, with hybrids as some sort of intermediary solution until EVs are widely accepted and the charging infrastructure is good enough.

I think the last ICE M3 will be built in 2027...afterwards probably a next gen electric M3. Makes sense.

[Young04]

Originally Posted by M4ord

Dont forget all these vendors will make the decsion based on percevied market. When looking at the current EV market the growth potential is so large it cant be quantified. However, within the last 12-18 months, and this is purely my observations, we have started to see the limits of the support infrastructure both energy delivery at charging stations, and with building them as well. Examples would be limits on precious metals in quantity, geopolotical issues where these mines are located, and now we are starting to see images and videos of people working these mines. The underlying infrastrucure is not as robust as the EV proponoents think it is.

My point being is that the industry as a whole is full throttle into the EV space because of a perceived market that is slowly waking up the the fact that having a 100% EV future is unsustainable. I think this will cause all the vendors to re-evaulate thier future plans. True ICE engines might might not be dead. Just my opinion.

If the infrastructure stays as is, then we're all screwed. However, an increase in EVs will, in my opinion, result in an improvement infrastructure, battery tech, etc. The solid state batteries that are being touted (which BMW is at or near the forefront of) addresses a lot of the issues associated with the manufacture of the current lithium ion batteries. Also, they weigh less. If they can make an EV that has the same overall weight as an equivalent ICE car, but the weight is down low, that thing will run circles around the ICE performance cars on offer today.

[2011ninja]

The biggest impact will be the future interest of the “auto enthusiasts”.

The future enthusiast may have a completely different set of interests. Can it make a cup of coffee. Can I sleep and get to a destination? .

Someone at work asked me why I purchased an M3 over EV specifically regarding the day to day performance aspects.

1) Looks Awesome
2) Drives Amazing

[a1gio2]

I never thought people would be driving automatic M3's and here we are. If they go full electric, everyone will love them and say how bad gas powered M3's were for the environment whilst sipping their soy lattes.

[Humdizzle]

What they should have done is not 'sell' the z4 coupe idea to toyota and made it their own. the new M coupe. S58, ceramics, Cup 2, cf hood / trunk / roof.~ 3300 pounds. manual.

turning a sedan chassis that has 4 adults in mind... and trying to make a 2 seater sports car like the CSL is a tough sell.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by a1gio2

I never thought people would be driving automatic M3's and here we are.

Right. The consumer has changed. Many manufacturers don't even make their sports cars with manual transmissions anymore because the cost to develop and maintain them doesn't make sense when people are buying them in such low numbers. BMW and a few others are holding on, but for how long? Same goes for sedans...many companies don't make them anymore because they don't sell well.

Next time you're out driving, take note of how many vehicles with a model year of 2020 or newer that you see on the roads that are sedans or coupes. It won't be many. Hybrid and full EV SUVs and CUVs is where every manufacturer is headed. And we love our trucks in the USA too. BMW will be no different (minus the trucks).

[Young04]

Originally Posted by a1gio2

I never thought people would be driving automatic M3's and here we are. If they go full electric, everyone will love them and say how bad gas powered M3's were for the environment whilst sipping their soy lattes.

That analogy is a very apt one.

Automatics: Quicker, less engaging
Manuals: Slower, more engaging

EV: Quicker, less engaging
ICE: Slower, more engaging

[Stockholmarn]

It's clear the increased dilution of the M brand continues (M Sport, M Performance, M logos everywhere, M340, X5 M60, XM, i4M50 etc etc) and the once clear line between a car with an M Sport package and the genuine product from BMW M GmbH seems to be getting more and more blurry.

We may know the difference but I think the % of people who do not is increasing.

This development could lead to a decreased brand value with less interest in the genuine M cars. One way to solve that could be to push the M range in a more distinct or extreme direction.

I believe the controversial grill could be a trial step in this direction, a way to further distance the car from the standard range.

Or perhaps this is the direction it's always been moving with each new generation of M car having more unique exterior features?

[Psychos1s]

Originally Posted by Stockholmarn

It's clear the increased dilution of the M brand continues (M Sport, M Performance, M logos everywhere, M340, X5 M60, XM, i4M50 etc etc) and the once clear line between a car with an M Sport package and the genuine product from BMW M GmbH seems to be getting more and more blurry.

We may know the difference but I think the % of people who do not is increasing.

This development could lead to a decreased brand value with less interest in the genuine M cars...

All of this!! Unless you know or do research it's very confusing. My wife even asked me about it one time when we were behind a M340i. Basically hinting that you would think the M340 would be better than the M3 based naming convention alone (larger number etc). I guess having the "i" in the name hints at the "less performance variant".

Then you have the SUV naming conventions with the M after. I get it because you wouldn't want to see or say "MX5" with Mazda names. But just adds to the confusion for the average consumer.

X5 sDrive40i/xDrive40i
X5 xDrive45e
X5 M50i
X5 M

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by Stockholmarn

One way to solve that could be to push the M range in a more distinct or extreme direction.

I believe the controversial grill could be a trial step in this direction, a way to further distance the car from the standard range.

Or perhaps this is the direction it's always been moving with each new generation of M car having more unique exterior features?

This is kind of my line of thinking.

Imagine a future (10 years or so from now) where the coupes are styled more like an i8 (so like, an M2 / M4 coupe that are like the i8, in line with a Corvette / Z06, and then an M6 that's even more extreme ala Corvette e-ray or Zora), but the SUVs are more like the XM / X4 / X6 for sporty ones and maybe an X8 to replace the X7 - make the X8 the size of a Tahoe, instead of Durango.