Car and Driver is, "Not crazy about the new M3."

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Ezio

at the cost of having a shitty sounding motor ? no thanks.

BMW please try again!

*Fake Sounding Motor being piped in through the speakers.

Test drove it, didn't like it, moved to the dark side.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Rev ///Me

*Fake Sounding Motor being piped in through the speakers.

Test drove it, didn't like it, moved to the dark side.

HotIce is that you ?

[krx927]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

About 70 % of the year it rains in Belgium , so I'll stick with PSS , because I need the grip in all weather conditions .
But I do believe the AD08R is a very good tire for the track , so thanks for posting the link

I am 100% with you on this. Of course you need very good (the best?) tire in rain. You are more likely to get killed in rain than in dry! PSS all the way!

And for the track; there are other so much better options as AD08R so where does this then leave this tire?!

[krx927]

I had a test drive of F80 a week ago and I also did not like it! Engine is the problem, it feels like a diesel engine. I really did not like it, f... the torque if I do not have the kick in the last 2k revs! The last 1000 (or 1500 revs) in S55 are spoiling everything! It almost feels like the car is breaking (not really but for sure acceleration feeling stops).

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by krx927

I had a test drive of F80 a week ago and I also did not like it! Engine is the problem, it feels like a diesel engine. I really did not like it, f... the torque if I do not have the kick in the last 2k revs! The last 1000 (or 1500 revs) in S55 are spoiling everything! It almost feels like the car is breaking (not really but for sure acceleration feeling stops).

Yuk

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by aus

Anyone who doesn't think the magazine reviews affect sales, just has to look at the M5 sales. Dealers were discounting that car in a big way 2 years after it's intro. That' NEVER happened before for ANY //M car before... oh, and it got PANNED in all the magazines too.

.

The E9X M3 didn't sell very well when it first came out either. The economy certainly had an effect but it was nowhere near as hard to obtain as an E46 M3. Those sold well over sticker at first.

But BMW makes a damned good SAV. I really liked the X3 loaner I drove a couple of weeks ago!

[FogCityM3]

Luxury car sales were decimated during the financial crisis. The E9x M3 actually did quite well over its lifecycle despite not meeting targets. Other performance luxury autos at around that price point were nowhere nearly as successful.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The E9X M3 didn't sell very well when it first came out either. The economy certainly had an effect but it was nowhere near as hard to obtain as an E46 M3. Those sold well over sticker at first.

But BMW makes a damned good SAV. I really liked the X3 loaner I drove a couple of weeks ago!

[8600RPM]

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2004-audi-s4-quattro-page-4

Car and driver liked the s4 better than E46 m3 at one point too. Just saying it's variable

[bigjae1976]

This is another thing I thought of. Never has the M3/4 had so many competitors. Meaning an actual 4 seater. Not a half of an effort back seat that you get in the 911.

Really, competitors started really closing the gap in the past 3-4 years. Before that I never thought anything except for MB/AMG were even close to even the 330/335 in the E49 and E9X generations.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by aus

Many F8x owners are not old school //M owners and don't get why others are so upset about the new car.
.

I am an old school ///M owner and don't get why others are so upset or feel the need to bash not only the F8X, but it's owners. I love my M4, including the S55 engine (which is nothing like a diesel as someone said earlier).

Enjoy your E9X cars as they are great cars. I will enjoy my F8X car because it is a great car also!

[aus]

The President of the LA CCA Chapter loves the F8x too. I'm guessing the position has some influence on one's opinion of everything BMW.
And I'm a lifetime member.

.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I am an old school ///M owner and don't get why others are so upset or feel the need to bash not only the F8X, but it's owners.

For me, 2 reasons:

1. I'm disappointed BMW didn't stick with the NA high revving concept. Maybe go with DI for some economy and performance gains on S65. I wanted to want the new one.

2. Self defense. Go to the F8x threads and see how many you can find that discuss performance. Now of those, see how many discuss how awful/slow/heavy/failure-prone the E9x M3 is. The answer is "almost all".

Enjoy your E9X cars as they are great cars. I will enjoy my F8X car because it is a great car also!

Awesome. Will do! I hope to get a ride in one on track next spring.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I am an old school ///M owner and don't get why others are so upset or feel the need to bash not only the F8X, but it's owners. I love my M4, including the S55 engine (which is nothing like a diesel as someone said earlier).

Enjoy your E9X cars as they are great cars. I will enjoy my F8X car because it is a great car also!

It is upsetting to many M purists/enthusiasts to see what has happened to both the car and the brand (forced induction, "m-parts" models, on and on). As a result, some people get too emotional about it and start attacking others. I understand the disappointment, and even frustration, as it is sad to see the end of such a great tradition, but there is no need to bash the people who like their f8Xs. That part is senseless and simply taking things too far. This is a hobby for most of us and it's important to keep it fun.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by kepler

It is upsetting to many M purists/enthusiasts to see what has happened to both the car and the brand (forced induction, "m-parts" models, on and on). As a result, some people get too emotional about it and start attacking others. I understand the disappointment, and even frustration, as it is sad to see the end of such a great tradition, but there is no need to bash the people who like their f8Xs. That part is senseless and simply taking things too far. This is a hobby for most of us and it's important to keep it fun.

Before there was ever an M3 or an M5, BMW made models such as the M535i and M635csi. I think that a lot of the people that complain about loss of "tradition" don't necessarily know the history, understand emissions and efficiency standards and targets that are being imposed on auto manufacturers, or acknowledge that it's very tough to be competitive with a small naturally aspirated V8 in a heavy coupe.

[Mathew87]

One additional reason for downsizing engines and going for turbos to achieve the same levels of power (both at BMW and other premium car manufacturers) is REGISTRATION TAXES. Unlike the US, the European market has registration taxes (the amount paid yearly for keeping the car on the road) that rise along with the engine's displacement. Where I come from the yearly tax for a:
1600 cc engine is aprox. 20 USD,
2000 cc engine (like a BMW N20) --> aprox. 60 USD,
3000 cc engine (current M3)-->aprox. 750 USD,
4000 cc engine (old M3) --> aprox. 1950 USD,
6300 cc engine (such as Mercedes C63 AMG) --> aprox. 3050 USD.

Multiply the difference between a 4000 cc engine and a 3000 cc engine over a 8 year period of ownership and you end up with a difference of 9600 USD that you would rather spend on anything else.

There are other markets where the difference in registration taxes and purchase taxes between small-large engines is even higher. As a result, engine downsizing is set to continue. BMW is a global brand and must take into account all markets where it operates. So, 15-20 years from now, a 2000 cc engine in an M3 will actually seem large. Sad but probably true.

[M3AG]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

... understand emissions and efficiency standards and targets that are being imposed on auto manufacturers, or acknowledge that it's very tough to be competitive with a small naturally aspirated V8 in a heavy coupe.

As far as emissions and efficiency goes what about other manufacturers?

1- RC F
2- R8
3- Mustang
4- Stingray
5- AMGs (C, E, SL...)
6- F-Type V8
7- Charger, Challenger
- Not counting Lambo, Ferrari, Mclaren, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, MB SLS...

I 100% agree with what you're saying about it's difficult for small v8 being competitive. BMW could modify S65 and add a supercharger instead.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by Mathew87

One additional reason for downsizing engines and going for turbos to achieve the same levels of power (both at BMW and other premium car manufacturers) is REGISTRATION TAXES. Unlike the US, the European market has registration taxes (the amount paid yearly for keeping the car on the road) that rise along with the engine's displacement. Where I come from the yearly tax for a:
1600 cc engine is aprox. 20 USD,
2000 cc engine (like a BMW N20) --> aprox. 60 USD,
3000 cc engine (current M3)-->aprox. 750 USD,
4000 cc engine (old M3) --> aprox. 1950 USD,
6300 cc engine (such as Mercedes C63 AMG) --> aprox. 3050 USD.

Multiply the difference between a 4000 cc engine and a 3000 cc engine over a 8 year period of ownership and you end up with a difference of 9600 USD that you would rather spend on anything else.

There are other markets where the difference in registration taxes and purchase taxes between small-large engines is even higher. As a result, engine downsizing is set to continue. BMW is a global brand and must take into account all markets where it operates. So, 15-20 years from now, a 2000 cc engine in an M3 will actually seem large. Sad but probably true.

That makes no sense. The largest market for the M3 is the usa + canada not europe. An F8x S55 (which i personally don't consider an M4/3 but a glorified 435i, there are *no* new m3, bmw just re-used the m3 badge to make the sales) or an E92 M3 will cost about the same in north america for yearly registration. The gas guzzler tax is the only one time payment diff, which if you buy a $75k-$80k fast car shouldn't be a factor.

The true reason which has been said many times, is the f80 s55 generic engine platform was chosen during a time a world economic crisis to reduce cost. Keeping the M3 badge on the car is what allowed them to increase margin and cushion them from a drop in sales in case of prolonged hard economic times. For comparison the E92 M3 was developped in time when engineers were allowed to reach for the stars. The result is a 100% bespoke engine. The S55 is nothing but a 435i engine.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by M3AG

As far as emissions and efficiency goes what about other manufacturers?

1- RC F
2- R8
3- Mustang
4- Stingray
5- AMGs (C, E, SL...)
6- F-Type V8
7- Charger, Challenger
- Not counting Lambo, Ferrari, Mclaren, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, MB SLS...

I 100% agree with what you're saying about it's difficult for small v8 being competitive. BMW could modify S65 and add a supercharger instead.

They all have to meet them, but others are able to offset their guzzlers with masses of econoboxes (Ford and Chevy), extreme gearing to meet standards (Corvette), etc. Other German automakers are going to forced induction, including MB/AMG (all new models are turbos) and Audi. Expect the next R8 to have a variant of the turbo motor. Smaller auto makers don't have to meet the same standards.

The RCF is an exception, but in the end they probably stuck with that engine because it was larger displacement and had room to go on the top end. The M3's V8 was pretty much maxed out at that displacement. While I like the idea of a supercharged V8, it's just not BMW's style. They would have gone with a variant of the S63tu before going that route.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

That makes no sense. The largest market for the M3 is the usa + canada not europe. An F8x S55 (which i personally don't consider an M4/3 but a glorified 435i, there are *no* new m3, bmw just re-used the m3 badge to make the sales) or an E92 M3 will cost about the same in north america for yearly registration. The gas guzzler tax is the only one time payment diff, which if you buy a $75k-$80k fast car shouldn't be a factor.

The true reason which has been said many times, is the f80 s55 generic engine platform was chosen during a time a world economic crisis to reduce cost. Keeping the M3 badge on the car is what allowed them to increase margin and cushion them from a drop in sales in case of prolonged hard economic times. For comparison the E92 M3 was developped in time when engineers were allowed to reach for the stars. The result is a 100% bespoke engine. The S55 is nothing but a 435i engine.

You, of course have a right to your opinion, but to say that the F8X is just a glorified 335/435 is extremely misinformed. Anyone that knows anything about the S55 motor and the F8X chassis, suspension, drivetrain, etc. knows that is not even close to being true. I guess by your definition, an E46 M3 was just a glorified 330i or a E36 M3 was just a glorified 325. Again, you have a right to your misinformed opinion.

Anyone that thinks that the S55 is nothing but a 435i engine can read here for the truth.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893611

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

You, of course have a right to your opinion, but to say that the F8X is just a glorified 335/435 is extremely misinformed. Anyone that knows anything about the S55 motor and the F8X chassis, suspension, drivetrain, etc. knows that is not even close to being true. I guess by your definition, an E46 M3 was just a glorified 330i or a E36 M3 was just a glorified 325. Again, you have a right to your misinformed opinion.

Anyone that thinks that the S55 is nothing but a 435i engine can read here for the truth.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893611

Chassis, I agree. Motor? Come on. It IS an N55, tuned. BMW says it's 75% N55. Call it N55iS if you wish. Look at the power curve. Same shape, just a bigger (diesel-like) bump that maxes out at the same ~5k, then flat to 7k, where it tanks.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Chassis, I agree. Motor? Come on. It IS an N55, tuned. BMW says it's 75% N55. Call it N55iS if you wish. Look at the power curve. Same shape, just a bigger (diesel-like) bump that maxes out at the same ~5k, then flat to 7k, where it tanks.

Ah, Kurt...you just can't let it go, can you?

There's less differentiation between the N63 and the S63 than there is between the N55 and the S55. Would you suggest calling the S63 the N63iS as well? The M5 and M6 are pretty awful, too, huh?

If they were to drop the S63 into the M4 would you still complain? You just need to accept that this is the engine, and the results are very good. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Ford is making a V8 that looks like it will blow the S65 out of the water. Maybe you should give it a shot.

[FogCityM3]

When I read the detailed sales training manual, the section side-by-side comparo of the S55 with the N55 and its obvious from reading it that they share a lot of parts. This is likely why the F80 shares 50% of total parts with the series car vs prior gens where it was more around 20%. BMW engineers in interviews themselves said they wanted to save money on engine development and spend more on chassis/lightweight materials (they're still making more money per vehicle however). This is in line with their overall goal of increasing profit per vehicle through platform and engine component sharing, while adhering to more stringent regulations.

It seems that Ford with the GT350 being at the edge of compliance (stated by their engineers) isn't subject to as stringent regulations, which isn't so great for the environment, but is awesome for consumers. That is great for enthusiast consumers who can take advantage of a manufacturer that isn't so hamstrung and can produce what they really want to. We all know the M division wanted to stay NA, but couldn't due partly to factors beyond its control.

I still think a DI engine could have been designed to improve fuel economy and emissions (cylinder deactivation, super-over drive gears, gear skipping, more aggressive cam overlap, compression ratio, etc), but would have been cost prohibitive in light of BMW's multi-year cost savings initiatives that helped increase corporate margins to record highs.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Chassis, I agree. Motor? Come on. It IS an N55, tuned. BMW says it's 75% N55. Call it N55iS if you wish. Look at the power curve. Same shape, just a bigger (diesel-like) bump that maxes out at the same ~5k, then flat to 7k, where it tanks.