The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[spiff]

It's tragic whenever I read about a death a track day. It's absolutely terrible.

There are a lot of really on-point opinions here that have been great to read, I always appreciate insight into other's perspective as a driver, student, and instructor.

Query for the masses:

In the growing 'industry' of DEs I've found that more DE organizations are popping up and basically copying/translating their own form of rules/regulations because it's what everyone else does. Tech inspection forms are requested, but nothing is basically enforced unless you're actually participating in a Time Attack and somebody actually walks around, in which case I've seen a lot of UNSAFE stuff pass (fixed seats with harnesses and no cage etc, people leaving shit in their car, we know the routine and we've been there).

And as many have mentioned, lots of people feeling they can 'instruct' just because they've done track days before...or they have a fast time...or big $ in their car. Honestly, I think it wouldn't hurt for the show-runner of the DE to debrief and have a talk with instructors before the day starts just to make sure everyone is on the same page. There's nothing wrong with being strict about safety!

My question:

- Do you think it would be better to separate run groups based on time or experience? Or separate on experience, but grid by time? (speedventures tries to do this, which I find is starting to work, until people grid really late then complain someone was slow in front of them).

Or is there another solution?

The reason I ask is in relation to the article initially posted, and my own experience. In the article the author mentions how much easier it is to get a fast car, this would lead me to believe (and have experienced) drivers with minimal or no track experience being able to push their way to a fast time, which provokes them to believe they are ADVANCED, because that's where all the FAST cars are. Which shouldn't be the case.

Additionally, there are quite a few rules, regulations, and obviously a world of theories and technique for how to get a car fast around the track. But something as simple as a rule for passing, especially when not enforced, can become deadly when ignored. Being in advanced should not necessarily be for the fastest drivers out there, but the ones most familiar with legitimate track etiquette.

Am I insane?

I feel there are small steps organizations can take without pissing people off; however we know it's never possible to make everyone happy- somebody will always bitch.

[pkimM3r]

good post @spiff

personally i think SV does it pretty well. I run black group. I like the pregrid by time but i have a methodology to it. This prob won't work for everyone because seems like most ppl don't give a shit about anything else besides getting a new PB - I'm there to get better and more consistent and to learn how to do Chris Harris moments

Session 1: ah yes, everyone is excited and bunch up to the front and grid early (so eager! ). i just make sure im mid pack and pass/be passed as many as i can this session. its usually slow, nothing to really complain about unless some dude is in this group and doesn't know how to check his mirrors. its expected though. im really re-familiarizing myself with the track and preparing myself mentally for the rest of the day. get going pretty fast and try to just align myself correctly with the pack (pass those that are just taking a sunday drive, letting those pass me who think IM doing a sunday drive).

Session 2: pregrid by time but bump down a couple cars, you never know if the other guy was in traffic and thats the only reason why i had a better time. eg. if im in top3/5/10 just bump a couple cars. hammer it. get passed those that do not belong in front of me.

Session 3: its a bit warmer, but hey, we're in the correct order now. im working consistency regardless of conditions. to me thats getting better. hammer it. haul ass (relative to myself). go for a few pb hot laps in between.

Session 4: who cares, im going mid pack because this is really my drift/car control session so dont want to hold anyone up but also dont want to be behind anyone so i can't power out appropriately.

[spiff]

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

good post @spiff

personally i think SV does it pretty well. I run black group. I like the pregrid by time but i have a methodology to it. This prob won't work for everyone because seems like most ppl don't give a shit about anything else besides getting a new PB - I'm there to get better and more consistent and to learn how to do Chris Harris moments

Session 1: ah yes, everyone is excited and bunch up to the front and grid early (so eager! ). i just make sure im mid pack and pass/be passed as many as i can this session. its usually slow, nothing to really complain about unless some dude is in this group and doesn't know how to check his mirrors. its expected though. im really re-familiarizing myself with the track and preparing myself mentally for the rest of the day. get going pretty fast and try to just align myself correctly with the pack (pass those that are just taking a sunday drive, letting those pass me who think IM doing a sunday drive).

Session 2: pregrid by time but bump down a couple cars, you never know if the other guy was in traffic and thats the only reason why i had a better time. eg. if im in top3/5/10 just bump a couple cars. hammer it. get passed those that do not belong in front of me.

Session 3: its a bit warmer, but hey, we're in the correct order now. im working consistency regardless of conditions. to me thats getting better. hammer it. haul ass (relative to myself). go for a few pb hot laps in between.

Session 4: who cares, im going mid pack because this is really my drift/car control session so dont want to hold anyone up but also dont want to be behind anyone so i can't power out appropriately.

This is a great point to illustrate people have different goals and mindsets, which is a similar thing I talked about in another thread.

It's great when people have goals and are aware of what other people are doing (like yourself), and so I don't think it would hurt in the driver's meeting to talk about that specifically. Make people aware that it isn't wheel-to-wheel, define what open-passing means, and explain perhaps what the groups truly mean.

Some people go 150% all day long and are infuriated by anyone slowing them, some alternate their sessions with hot ones, and some are out there to just go fast and go home in one piece.

My father always says "The name of the game is track time. I'll take a whole track day and a safe ride home over a hot lap and a tow".

That always sticks with me. Unless I'm doing a club race or some kind of sanctioned race, no point in going 13/10ths second session out.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by spiff

This is a great point to illustrate people have different goals and mindsets, which is a similar thing I talked about in another thread.

It's great when people have goals and are aware of what other people are doing (like yourself), and so I don't think it would hurt in the driver's meeting to talk about that specifically. Make people aware that it isn't wheel-to-wheel, define what open-passing means, and explain perhaps what the groups truly mean.

Some people go 150% all day long and are infuriated by anyone slowing them, some alternate their sessions with hot ones, and some are out there to just go fast and go home in one piece.

My father always says "The name of the game is track time. I'll take a whole track day and a safe ride home over a hot lap and a tow".

That always sticks with me. Unless I'm doing a club race or some kind of sanctioned race, no point in going 13/10ths second session out.

I started with CCA and have since gone with XS, NCRC and SV and its just me taking what I learned and applying it. I haven't been in the beginner groups with XS or SV but I'm sure they talk about it. NCRC was by far the ones who spoke to this the most. the chief was literally giving an ear full to those who were driving way past their capabilities

But then there are those guys who run black or any advanced group on their first event. Just my last SV event, on the outlap a dude in a brand new 991 GT3 got a black flag and instead of pitting in, he parallel parked it next to the corner worker that was pointing the flag at him. That guy should have been in the beginner group. Or dudes just going WOT the whole time with the TC actually doing the magic of keeping the car under control.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Feuerbach

I watched that video with my hand over the bottom half of the screen blocking me from seeing the drivers inputs. The car is smooth and on a near perfect line through the course, its an interesting exercise.

As for being smooth and flying, if you were hovering a helicopter in a storm would your inputs not be extremely quick and aggressive to fight off downdrafts and crosswinds to keep you stationary... You have to feel what is happening to the machine, no time for VVI cross-checks or GPS drift, similar to a car being driven 10/10ths. The end result of all those inputs is actually stability and balance.

Excellent point.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I've had the privilege of being driven on track by a range of race and championship winning race drivers (including Martin Brundle, some 24 hour Le Mans Porsche winner, a Touring car champion etc) and none of them drove at all like that....except when they were purposely trying to pitch the car sideways into a bend for effect.
I'd say that guy was overdriving the car.

That doesn't mean anything other than that, most likely, those cars gripped to the point where constant corrections weren't necessary. Now, take those same cars and drive'm at a pace another notch or two up (or, on qualifying lap as versus your average wheel-to-wheel race lap), you'll find the driver correcting more.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by OC3

That doesn't mean anything other than that, most likely, those cars gripped to the point where constant corrections weren't necessary. Now, take those same cars and drive'm at a pace another notch or two up (or, on qualifying lap as versus your average wheel-to-wheel race lap), you'll find the driver correcting more.

and on buttonwillow road surface and width...with that much power, there isn't much track out width.

[OC3]

^this is true

[1MOREMOD]

So what your saying is I should jerk the wheel around so people think I'm a pro.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I've had the privilege of being driven on track by a range of race and championship winning race drivers (including Martin Brundle, some 24 hour Le Mans Porsche winner, a Touring car champion etc) and none of them drove at all like that....except when they were purposely trying to pitch the car sideways into a bend for effect.
I'd say that guy was overdriving the car.

Agreed.

That guy would never last more than 30 minutes. I think fast lap is going to be different than a fast race car driver. If you're on the limit then you're tires won't last and you'll be a frequent flyer into the pits for tires or your tires will be crap after 5 minutes.

Every time you add steering, you're also scrubbing speed. The only thing that can make the car go faster is throttle. My opinion is that overdriving or using oversteer is a good tool to use in certain situations but certainly don't need to be driving the entire lap twisting the steering wheel. I've found that my fastest laps involve throttle steering accurately so I can unwind the steering wheel earlier. The less I correct coming out of the turn, the more throttle I can add.

Corrections are necessary but if you make a correction...the next question is why because you just scrubbed some speed. Some may experience faster laps sawing at the wheel but that could be from just driving well below the limit of the car. Now you've attained the limit and exceeded it. The fact is you could still be faster.

Again...more steering scrubs speed. More throttle adds speed. Simple. Which is why your top race car drivers are tenths of a second better. They correct less than the guy that's .1 slower AND they are driving the car at its limit.

[pkimM3r]

its a promotional video for gopro so hes intentionally wot throttle almost the whole time for the drama. more views. but still something to be said about this guys skill. we are sitting here criticizing a pro driver when he would spank us on any track any day in any car. its sort of ridiculous

but im willing to bet this guy will be much faster than the guy who cant do this if conditions are wet and raining.

look at leh keen. hes blistering past ppl in the rain.

[pkimM3r]

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Agreed.

That guy would never last more than 30 minutes. I think fast lap is going to be different than a fast race car driver. If you're on the limit then you're tires won't last and you'll be a frequent flyer into the pits for tires or your tires will be crap after 5 minutes.

Every time you add steering, you're also scrubbing speed. The only thing that can make the car go faster is throttle. My opinion is that overdriving or using oversteer is a good tool to use in certain situations but certainly don't need to be driving the entire lap twisting the steering wheel. I've found that my fastest laps involve throttle steering accurately so I can unwind the steering wheel earlier. The less I correct coming out of the turn, the more throttle I can add.

Corrections are necessary but if you make a correction...the next question is why because you just scrubbed some speed. Some may experience faster laps sawing at the wheel but that could be from just driving well below the limit of the car. Now you've attained the limit and exceeded it. The fact is you could still be faster.

Again...more steering scrubs speed. More throttle adds speed. Simple. Which is why your top race car drivers are tenths of a second better. They correct less than the guy that's .1 slower AND they are driving the car at its limit.

i think the guy who is 0.1 faster than the next guy is the guy who is much better on the brakes.

[pkimM3r]

billy johnson. pretty similar.

[OC3]

Wow, LOL. Amazing how people interpret what they read in their own way and just go off on tangents. Then, you have others who recognize what they read because they've been there.

more steering scrubs speed. More throttle adds speed. Really? LOL. And, who drives entire lap twisting the steering wheel?? LOLOL Wow, just wow.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

its a promotional video for gopro so hes intentionally wot throttle almost the whole time for the drama. more views. but still something to be said about this guys skill.

LOL, it's simply amazing how people watch this video and don't get that.

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

its a promotional video for gopro so hes intentionally wot throttle almost the whole time for the drama. more views. but still something to be said about this guys skill.

This is something I know a lot about. Most track videos are same boring one best lap, the footage doesn't show their hand and, with the cam mounted on the windshield or the front bumper, just shows a view of the track up ahead, there's no slides or near-misses, etc. There are literally tens of thousands of that type of videos on youtube. I've been editing videos and intentionally filling them with lots of oh-sh*t-moments purely to entertain. The more oh-sh*t-moments, the more hits/viewers. Mine are meant to entertain. People like crash videos. But, as you felt the need to point it out to some clueless people, these people just don't get it and feel the need to over analyze what they see. And, they usually get it wrong. Ace? LOL

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

we are sitting here criticizing a pro driver when he would spank us on any track any day in any car. its sort of ridiculous

Yea but, remember, some of these people are "instructors" at their regional HPDE's. They know better than most.

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

billy johnson. pretty similar.

Yeah, according to some of these comments, Billy Johnson is slow, he's scrubbing off speed with those quick corrections he's doing. BillyJ must be a slow driver.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by OC3

Wow, LOL. Amazing how people interpret what they read in their own way and just go off on tangents. Then, you have others who recognize what they read because they've been there.

more steering scrubs speed. More throttle adds speed. Really? LOL. And, who drives entire lap twisting the steering wheel?? LOLOL Wow, just wow.

Turn the steering wheel with the same amount of throttle. You will lose speed.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by OC3

LOL, it's simply amazing how people watch this video and don't get that.




This is something I know a lot about. Most track videos are same boring one best lap, the footage doesn't show their hand and, with the cam mounted on the windshield or the front bumper, just shows a view of the track up ahead, there's no slides or near-misses, etc. There are literally tens of thousands of that type of videos on youtube. I've been editing videos and intentionally filling them with lots of oh-sh*t-moments purely to entertain. The more oh-sh*t-moments, the more hits/viewers. Mine are meant to entertain. People like crash videos. But, as you felt the need to point it out to some clueless people, these people just don't get it and feel the need to over analyze what they see. And, they usually get it wrong. Ace? LOL




Yea but, remember, some of these people are "instructors" at their regional HPDE's. They know better than most.




Yeah, according to some of these comments, Billy Johnson is slow, he's scrubbing off speed with those quick corrections he's doing. BillyJ must be a slow driver.

So now you're becoming quite dramatic about this. So if that's how you interpret my comments to universally call anyone who makes a correction then I guess I'm saying BJ is slow.

Me You

[pkimM3r]

no more korean on korean hate!!

i personally love both oc3 and bigjae videos because of the slides. i mean, that is the fun part of a track day and the fun part of the footage right?

i read in speed secrets that 3-10% of slip angle is where the maximum levels of grip are for tires. the best of the best professionals can do this while being smooth while others will bounce in and out of that range, which will cause the driver to make corrections. thats why i think being smoother doesnt necessarily mean faster (at the amateur, weekend warrior level).

but thats just me.

[pkimM3r]

heres the car control article that was posted back then. there is a range of under/over driving shown separating n00bs and experts. the range gets smaller.

the tighter the range the smoother you are and faster. that doesnt literally say to me that smoother is faster in every situation. i think some people are confusing being slow at not even close to the limit (under developed in graph) and being smooth while bouncing in and out of the limit (refined). huge difference there.

at my level, being smooth with no incidents just means i am going too slow. i will continue to work on my skills to make that range get tighter and tighter but hmm maybe i shouldn't be going to hpde's but i should be going to drift days or rally cross because to me thats more fun

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Turn the steering wheel with the same amount of throttle. You will lose speed.

Ohhh I see, let me write that down. I'm learning so much.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Turn the steering wheel with the same amount of throttle. You will lose speed.

Isn't it faster to scrub speed with tires, brakes and engine braking than brakes alone. I think I overdrive the car and for me it's faster, at the expense of the tires. My data shows me cooking it into corners faster than I should and making thru in i guess unorthodox way is more effective.