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      10-06-2014, 11:24 AM   #67
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I wonder what color the track lights were at that time. If they were green, someone has some serious explaining to do.
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      10-06-2014, 11:25 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Good grief. From that angle, it looks like that besides the tire, the first thing to hit that tractor was his head. I'm all for miracles, but I think this is going to unfortunately wind up being the first F1 driver death in over 20 years.

Also, why is the guy still waving the green flag at the time of the accident?
I'm not sure if its the camera angle, but local yellow (or double waved yellow) ends right after where the incident occurred.
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      10-06-2014, 11:32 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
I wonder what color the track lights were at that time. If they were green, someone has some serious explaining to do.
Green track when Sutil ran off, that triggered local yellow (single yellow).
When marshals and tractor were deployed to retrieve the Sauber, local double waved yellow to signal cars to SLOW DOWN and prepare to stop.

Then when Jules aquaplaned (seems to be like that) and hit the tractor. Safety car and medical car deployed. Race ran under safety car two a lap or two. Then red flag to suspend the race. Then announced the race will not resume.

Normally when cars ran off, it will not trigger a safety car. (Off track retirements) However, given the slippery condition, deteriorate weather, and worn out intermediate tires. The specific condition yesterday might require a safety car, due to the likeliness of the same incident might re-occur.

FIA can definitely learn the way run the procedure in the future.
Maybe longer double waved yellow zone to slow down the cars even earlier. Or mandatory speed limit when there's double waved yellow (marshals on track, obey speed limit - similar to pit lane speed limit). etc etc....
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      10-06-2014, 11:59 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Gif of the moment when Bianchi smashed into the tractor.
***WARNING*** Graphical images ***WARNING***

http://gfycat.com/HiddenSleepyIceblueredtopzebra
Unfortunately, that looks ultimately fatal--but we can be hopeful... What an impact.
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      10-06-2014, 12:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Green track when Sutil ran off, that triggered local yellow (single yellow).
When marshals and tractor were deployed to retrieve the Sauber, local double waved yellow to signal cars to SLOW DOWN and prepare to stop.
Sorry but the video clearly shows a green flag being waved at the previous crash site
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      10-06-2014, 12:24 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinim3 View Post
Sorry but the video clearly shows a green flag being waved at the previous crash site
The green flag indicates the end of yellow (or double waved yellow) from that point on. Yellows were shown at corners or marshal stations before the incident. Which was not shown here. I'll have to replay the race again.
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      10-06-2014, 12:40 PM   #73
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Here's the complete amateur vid, including aftermath.

http://www.autojunk.nl/2014/10/jules...rash-op-suzuka


Speechless...
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      10-06-2014, 12:48 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
The green flag indicates the end of yellow (or double waved yellow) from that point on. Yellows were shown at corners or marshal stations before the incident. Which was not shown here. I'll have to replay the race again.
but why would they put a green flag right at the crash site! put it on the corner after the crash site. If I'm a driver as soon as I see green I'm hitting full throttle --- which could easily be what happened if Bianchi saw the green being waved and hit the throttle only to hydroplane at the exact same spot Sutil did the lap before when racing was under green conditions. The rate of speed his car is traveling when hitting the tractor does not look indicative that he was at double yellow speed (which means be prepared to stop).

Furthermore, under the wet conditions their should have been a full course caution not just a local yellow.
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      10-06-2014, 01:11 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM5 View Post
Here's the complete amateur vid, including aftermath.

http://www.autojunk.nl/2014/10/jules...rash-op-suzuka


Speechless...
Geeze that's insane.

As far as the flags are concerned, it looks like it was a local double-yellow up to the point where they started moving Guitierrez' car behind the barriers and the marshal prematurely started waving the green thinking it was clear. I'm not sure if Bianchi saw the green and thought it was ok to resume racing and then aquaplaned, but the green flag looked like it was waved too early even before the crane cleared the barrier and waved for even longer after Bianchi crashed.
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      10-06-2014, 01:26 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E9TOU View Post
Geeze that's insane.

As far as the flags are concerned, it looks like it was a local double-yellow up to the point where they started moving Guitierrez' car behind the barriers and the marshal prematurely started waving the green thinking it was clear. I'm not sure if Bianchi saw the green and thought it was ok to resume racing and then aquaplaned, but the green flag looked like it was waved too early even before the crane cleared the barrier and waved for even longer after Bianchi crashed.
The timing of the switch from the marshall waving yellow to green is just seconds before the crash happens. Imagine you're a driver looking at the corner marshall and you see him switch from yellow to green. What would your immediate instinct be? Mine would be "all is clear, time to get back on the throttle and go full-speed."

Of course I'm speculating but I just don't see how Bianchi could have been traveling at such a high velocity unless he thought it was green racing.
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      10-06-2014, 05:10 PM   #77
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how can they send heavy equipment like winches and cranes onto the track without a safety car? seems very dangerous, especially at the bottom of a high speed turn.

and part of the reason why bianch got so seriously hurt is the high height of the tractor's frame. most of the crash protection on the F1 car is in the carbon fibre tub, but that just slid underneath the tractor. most of the impact was borne by the much weaker intake scoop, and partially by bianchi's head.
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      10-06-2014, 05:48 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
how can they send heavy equipment like winches and cranes onto the track without a safety car? seems very dangerous, especially at the bottom of a high speed turn.

and part of the reason why bianch got so seriously hurt is the high height of the tractor's frame. most of the crash protection on the F1 car is in the carbon fibre tub, but that just slid underneath the tractor. most of the impact was borne by the much weaker intake scoop, and partially by bianchi's head.
Technically its not "on the track". it was on the gravel trap and impact barriers out side of "Dunlop Curve".

Normally in dry conditions, there's definitely no need to deploy safety car to assist the retrieval of stranded cars off track.
In this case, it was a wet track with worned inters.
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      10-06-2014, 05:59 PM   #79
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Green flag was definitely premature. Safety equipment must clear the barrier first.
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      10-06-2014, 09:18 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dim635csi View Post
Green flag was definitely premature. Safety equipment must clear the barrier first.
No doubt. The yellow flags should have remained until the crane and wreck was safely behind the barriers. Grave mistake with a terrible outcome. I feel sorry for the guy with the flags, this will haunt him the rest of his life.
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      10-06-2014, 09:41 PM   #81
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That video was extremely hard to watch, I figured it must have been pretty horrific for them not to show it on tv. It's pretty incredible Bianchi survived the accident, poor kid is in rough shape but at least he has a chance, all prayers go out to him and his family
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      10-06-2014, 10:06 PM   #82
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I guess they could have done it Monaco style, with cranes behind the barriers. But in that case could have been a couple dead corner workers trying to hook the car up.

It just was a very unfortunate accident, in terrible conditions. It is car racing, they risk their life every time they get in the car.
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      10-06-2014, 11:47 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I guess they could have done it Monaco style, with cranes behind the barriers. But in that case could have been a couple dead corner workers trying to hook the car up.

It just was a very unfortunate accident, in terrible conditions. It is car racing, they risk their life every time they get in the car.
There were several high cranes on various locations around Suzuka. There were two near the overpass/after the Degner corners, and one outside run-off at 130R.

I suppose they didn't put it over at Dunlop corner was the service road was shared with the final chicane. If a huge crane placed there, it will block the entire service road?
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      10-07-2014, 08:36 AM   #84
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This from BBC a few hours ago:

Jules Bianchi: Marussia driver 'critical but stable' after crash

Marussia driver Jules Bianchi's condition is "critical but stable" following his crash in the Japanese GP, world motorsport's governing body the FIA has told BBC Sport.
The 25-year-old was unconscious when taken to hospital and had an operation on Sunday on a severe head injury.
The Frenchman was injured when his car left the Suzuka track where Adrian Sutil had crashed the lap before.
Bianchi's car hit a recovery vehicle that was removing Sutil's car.
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      10-07-2014, 08:58 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
i think when the race is redflagged the cars are ordered according to the last time they crossed the start-finish line, and not according to their position at the moment of declaring the red flag. i think vettel pitted and lost the position on the final lap, so when the race was stopped that final lap was discarded since he hadn't crossed the start-finish line yet
It's two laps prior. So in this case the red flag was thrown during lap 46, last completed lap was 45 so the order is taken from the end of lap 44.

Anyone remember 2003 Brazilian GP? They needed a court case to determine the winner. They initially gave the win to Räikkönen, even though Fisichella was leading at the time of the red flag. Turned out Fisi had passed the start/finish line for his 56th lap, so the results needed to be from end of lap 54 (where Fisi was leading), not lap 53 (where Räikkönen was leading). Alonso took 3rd but since he was the cause of the red flag and had crashed heavily, the podium step was empty.
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      10-07-2014, 09:26 AM   #86
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http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/10/0...-injury-crash/



Jules Bianchi suffered a brain injury in his crash in the Japanese Grand Prix two days ago, his team has confirmed.

A statement issued by Bianchi’s family in conjunction with his Marussia team on Tuesday confirmed he suffered a “diffuse axonal injury” after his collision with a track recovery vehicle at Suzuka on Sunday. He remains in intensive care in a critical but stable condition.

Professor Gerard Saillant, the president of the FIA medical commission, and Professor Alessandro Frati, a neurosurgeon from the University of Rome La Sapienza, have joined Bianchi’s family and team members at the Mie General Medical Center in Yokkaichi where he is being treated.

Marussia and the Bianchi family expressed their thanks for the many messages of support they have received since the crash.

Quote:
Marussia statement in full
The following statement is provided by the family of Jules Bianchi, in conjunction with the Mie General Medical Center, and is distributed on their behalf by the Marussia F1 Team.

“This is a very difficult time for our family, but the messages of support and affection for Jules from all over the world have been a source of great comfort to us. We would like to express our sincere appreciation.

Jules remains in the Intensive Care Unit of the Mie General Medical Center in Yokkaichi. He has suffered a diffuse axonal injury and is in a critical but stable condition. The medical professionals at the hospital are providing the very best treatment and care and we are grateful for everything they have done for Jules since his accident.

We are also grateful for the presence of Professor Gerard Saillant, President of the FIA Medical Commission, and Professor Alessandro Frati, Neurosurgeon of the University of Rome La Sapienza, who has travelled to Japan at the request of Scuderia Ferrari. They arrived at the hospital today and met with the medical personnel responsible for Jules’ treatment, in order to be fully informed of his clinical status so that they are able to advise the family. Professors Saillant and Frati acknowledge the excellent care being provided by the Mie General Medical Center and would like to thank their Japanese colleagues.

The hospital will continue to monitor and treat Jules and further medical updates will be provided when appropriate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_axonal_injury

Quote:
Diffuse axonal injury (DAI) is one of the most common and devastating types of traumatic brain injury, meaning that damage occurs over a more widespread area than in focal brain injury. DAI, which refers to extensive lesions in white matter tracts, is one of the major causes of unconsciousness and persistent vegetative state after head trauma. It occurs in about half of all cases of severe head trauma.

The outcome is frequently coma, with over 90% of patients with severe DAI never regaining consciousness. Those who do wake up often remain significantly impaired.

Other authors state that DAI can occur in every degree of severity from (very) mild or moderate to (very) severe. Concussion may be a milder type of diffuse axonal injury.
Sad...
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      10-07-2014, 09:34 AM   #87
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Explanation of the green flag saw in the video.

Quote:
Let’s clear this up: the original resting position of Sutil’s car after it crashed was after that marshal’s post (identified as number 12) and on the amateur video you can see them waving double yellow flags.

The marshals then began to recover Sutil’s car and moved it towards the escape road before the marshals post. Once the car was no longer after the marshal’s post, they switched to waving green flags. (Note that by “after” I mean relative to the direction of traffic on the circuit.)

This is correct. A yellow flag indicates danger ahead, a green flag indicates it is clear to go racing. Because Sutil’s car had been moved the marshals at that post were correct to switch from yellow to green flags.

If you compare the amateur video to the footage broadcast during the race you can get a better impression of the relative position of the marshal’s post.
http://t.co/24sH3wyVl6
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      10-07-2014, 09:36 AM   #88
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Sad news indeed. I can say from personal experience that watching a loved one exist in a persistent vegetative state for years is a nightmare no family should have to endure. I hope neither he nor Michael end up in such a state.
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