[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Nahlem

Right EVs are so dangerous and catch fire so often this should be at this point illegal to spread its pure miss information, its been stated over and over and thousand times over again EVs do not catch fire more often then ICE cars the Swedish MSB has shown that on 100 000 vehicles 4 EVs burn on the ICE side it is 36 per 100 000 vehicles. If anything ICE should be definitely banned from being parked in closed areas or being transported on boats.

Claiming EVs are subsided because they aint good while Oil has been subsided sense the 1830s and they still haven't managed to make them more then 25-30% effective that if anything is a sham. How them oils wells doing for ya in the US? Still leaking enormous amount of methane, benzine and other dangerous chemicals out in the environment because guess what oil companies couldn't care less about plugging those damn things properly. Or remember that single gallon of oil can contaminate as much one million gallons of water, hows the BP oil spill going over there? But thats alright to do just so you can fuel up your car in less then one minute at the gas station.

You are claiming EVs are in their infancy damn straight they are and yet they are beating ICE vehicles on a daily basis in many areas imagine if EVs had investing in them as much as ice when they first back in the in 1800s imagine where we would be then. But no we chose the oil way unfortunate.

And get this firemen have been putting our fires on ICEs sense they came thats about about 200 years of fire fighting ICE fires, i am sure our fire departments will figure out a faster way to put out battery fires in the very near future if they haven't already.

Anyone with a decent brain in their head understands this. You are comparing a product thats been around sense our industrial revolution basicly to something that what Tesla in 2008 with their roadster started putting out and now what only 15e years later we are here imagine if all the other automotive companies would have taken EVs seriously 2008 where we would be in comparison to today.

So stop the blatant bashing on EVs its getting tiresome.

That has been debunked. When you correct for age and how ICE is used by consumers, the fire risk is similar. The only thing not similar is the catastrophic nature of EV fires. That nature allowed them to destroy 1,500 ! cars in a UK airport parking garage. And yes, they say an ICE started the fire, but when it spread to the EV's, it became uncontainable. It is why more and more parking garages are resorting to banning EV's from parking in them. Well, the fire risk and the weight, several EV pickups actually exceed current pound per foot design ratings of said parking garages.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by crashoverride

In the long run EV's maintenance is going to win once range anxiety gets solved.

False, EV's do go the shop less often than ICE, BUT their per visit cost is way higher than ICE and the repair network is horrible compared to ICE. Hertz found this out the hard way.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Perhaps it would behoove you to know the EV's existed before the ICE. Perhaps you should also do some research on the destruction to the environment done by building EV's including destroying the land of some of the poorest countries in the world.

I am well aware of the issues with EV batteries production it something these companies producing them have to get better at no doubt about it. We are at the beginning of this and finally we can actually put in place measures on a whole industry that will come to dominate our markets in the very near future.

Unlike when the oil craze started we didn't even bother to put in regulations when we should have why? Because we didn't know better but now we do and we still don't place the amount of restriction on it as we should do compared to the scrutiny the EV market is facing, and don't get me wrong i am all for scrutiny on a industry whether it be the automotive or something else. That is a good thing.

But the problem today is that the oil industries is so gigantic that its become an own living breathing thing lobbying out as much as possible of the regulations hitting them. While during its whole lifetime preventing new industries competing with them due to becoming to big so it can outmanoeuvre all new industrious whether it be by buying them or some other way that money can stop competition against them.

You have to take in to account the whole big picture of both EVs and ICE. There is this argument coming up constantly "Oh well the ores for batteries is rare and its exploiting people" and i agree its wrong and should be dealt with as a consumer making our choices is what is going to drive the market in right direction, but don't for a second believe that ICE cars are innocent in this matter they contain other minerals that are rare as well just go look up what type of minerals are used in a catalytic converter on a car. Heck look up if we even can supply all the worlds cars with catalytic converters. Heck in my country of BiH where i was born they remove both catalytic converters and particle filters due to their petrol/diesel being so dirty that it clogs new cars. So yeah there is that aspect also on the ICE side. But am i mad at this ? No i am not i completely understand not all country's can afford better compared to what we have in the West world.

Thats no mere easy ores needed to get, for a thing that doesn't work the first 10-15 minutes of the car starting if its even colder it takes even longer and during that whole time the ICE care is realising all those emissions right out in the environment unfiltered until it reaches its optimal working temperature only to be turned of when arriving at work because well work was only 10-15 min away with the car, obviously not all faces same short driving times with their cars.

This is the problem with the whole debate EV vs ICE its so one sided that people have forgotten how bad our cars used to be compared to today, and how much materials are needed today to make an ICE car "Greener" compared to back in the 60-70s before regulations started taking place.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

False, EV's do go the shop less often than ICE, BUT their per visit cost is way higher than ICE and the repair network is horrible compared to ICE. Hertz found this out the hard way.

To be fair, the problem for Hertz is primarily a Tesla problem. Tesla doesn’t have a very good parts operation nor do they have a good repair operation either. So Hertz wasn’t given fleet discount on repair parts nor did they have an easy ability to order the parts from Tesla to do their own repairs.

Another issue they had is Tesla kept dropping the price of their cars aggressively which forced Hertz to mark down the value of its cars on its books based on GAAP rules. Forcing them to have heavier than anticipated losses.

Established brands who have along automotive experience like BMW wouldn’t cause them the same problems with their EVs. BMW EVs aren’t as headline grabbing as Tesla though…

[crashoverride]

No one factors in all the military subsidized costs the US incurs in ensuring the safe passage of oil bearing ships.

EV's will never compare to the environmental damage that Exxon Valdez, the uncontrolled oil spill in the the gulf and the literally thousands of other environmental tragedies that has come with our pursuit of oil.
Nor the slaughter and wars in central America to build oil pipelines.

Automotive dealerships are having committees and councils in attempting to plan for the future were revenues evaporates in light of the reduced visits to the service department.

The whole blocking of chargers is just so laughable. Like WHY..?? No one is forcing you to ever buy an electric truck blocking does nothing other than inconvenient a stranger. It's like blocking a fuel pump with a horse.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

To be fair, the problem for Hertz is primarily a Tesla problem. Tesla doesn’t have a very good parts operation nor do they have a good repair operation either. So Hertz wasn’t given fleet discount on repair parts nor did they have an easy ability to order the parts from Tesla to do their own repairs.

Another issue they had is Tesla kept dropping the price of their cars aggressively which forced Hertz to mark down the value of its cars on its books based on GAAP rules. Forcing them to have heavier than anticipated losses.

Established brands who have along automotive experience like BMW wouldn’t cause them the same problems with their EVs. BMW EVs aren’t as headline grabbing as Tesla though…

BMW's existing dealer network will help them, but sales have a way to go to catch Tesla. Tesla having to generate a repair station network from scratch will not fly with traditional buyers. Techies and Greenies who had to have EV will tolerate subpar service, regular buyers comparing to ICE experience will not.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by SpaceSilver.X1

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NdsYoZjHNRM

Not singling you out, you just happened to post the picture.

Let's play Devil's advocate.

How do we know it's an i7 and not a regular 7 series ICE?

If it is an i7, how did the fire get here, aren't the batteries under the driver and passengers?

[crashoverride]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Not singling you out, you just happened to post the picture.

Let's play Devil's advocate.

How do we know it's an i7 and not a regular 7 series ICE?

If it is an i7, how did the fire get here, aren't the batteries under the driver and passengers?

Lol... Good catch. It appears that whole YouTube channel is a dumpster fire

[Berliner]

What a ridiculous thread!
From what I can see this vehicle doesn't have the i-badge on the grill nor the blue ring around the BMW logo so it's NOT the i7 but rather a 740i or 760i ICE car.

And it's CLEARLY not anywhere near the battery department, even if it was an EV.
There is something burning besides the car, probably rests of the material used for the arson attack.

The EV hate is so boring.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

BMW's existing dealer network will help them, but sales have a way to go to catch Tesla. Tesla having to generate a repair station network from scratch will not fly with traditional buyers. Techies and Greenies who had to have EV will tolerate subpar service, regular buyers comparing to ICE experience will not.

That’s all conjecture.

The point is the issues you pointed out about Hertz aren’t broadly applicable to EVs in general. They are teething issues of them dealing with an upstart automaker versus an established one.

Tesla is able to get away with a less defined dealership network not because buyers don’t care about service quality if they drive an EV. It is due to EVs needing a lot less service so they can make do with less.

On an ICE car you’re servicing them as frequently as every 3 months or 3K miles depending on brand. An EV can easily go 100K miles or more before it needs anything more than tire rotations and brake fluid.

But I get you. Some buyers will really miss their frequent visits to their dealership service department.

They used to view the as stealerships and hated them, but now they can’t wait to visit them again.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

That’s all conjecture.

The point is the issues you pointed out about Hertz aren’t broadly applicable to EVs in general. They are teething issues of them dealing with an upstart automaker versus an established one.

Tesla is able to get away with a less defined dealership network not because buyers don’t care about service quality if they drive an EV. It is due to EVs needing a lot less service so they can make do with less.

On an ICE car you’re servicing them as frequently as every 3 months or 3K miles depending on brand. An EV can easily go 100K miles or more before it needs anything more than tire rotations and brake fluid.

But I get you. Some buyers will really miss their frequent visits to their dealership service department.

They used to view the as stealerships and hated them, but now they can’t wait to visit them again.

False, as evidenced by EV sales hitting the wall. Visit youtube or message boards on how happy Tesla owners experience with service is.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Berliner

The EV hate is so boring.

Get used to it, its barely started. The mandates/ICE emissions really get serious by 2028, then we'll see what happens in the EU and the USA.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

False, as evidenced by EV sales hitting the wall. Visit youtube or message boards on how happy Tesla owners experience with service is.

False that you’re in love with visiting the dealership service department and seeing how much they want to charge you today?

If you’re trying to say false to BMW EV maintenance requirements. Here it is from BMW.

That’s pretty much no maintenance…

But maybe your EV hate is mostly due to being a service advisor and you’re worried you’ll be lonely?

Via: https://www.bmwofschererville.com/se...v-maintenance/

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

False that you’re in love with visiting the dealership service department and seeing how much they want to charge you today?

If you’re trying to say false to BMW EV maintenance requirements. Here it is from BMW.

That’s pretty much no maintenance…

But maybe your EV hate is mostly due to being a service advisor and you’re worried you’ll be lonely?

Via: https://www.bmwofschererville.com/se...v-maintenance/

Attachment 3387993

"EV hate is mostly due to being a service advisor and you’re worried you’ll be lonely?"

Nope, the only thing I hate is the Green Insanity.

When has any car you owned followed the manufacture maintenance schedule.

Anyways, since I am new here and value the tech side of this place far more than EV fanboys, good luck and carry on. In the good old days of forums would have enjoyed a good old fashioned smackdown. Alas, too easy to get bobbed by the ban hammer now.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by co_440i

The US market will never be "filled with cheap Chinese EVs." We don't even permit the import of Chinese cell phones, we're never going to let mobile PLA SIGINT platforms drive around American streets.

Are you living under a rock? Where did you get this asinine idea?

“…While the vast majority of the global iPhone 15 stock will still come from China…”
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/2...y-launch-china Just one of many articles a quick Google search yields.

Not to mention all of the U.S. land China is buying up. https://americanmind.org/memo/this-l...beijings-land/

I have a friend who is an automotive electrical engineer and he was working for a company that was working with a Chinese company on battery technology. They finally ended the contract because of the blatant ways the Chinese were working to steal their proprietary technology. He was in China for this project and he left with a very low opinion of the Chinese.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Are you living under a rock? Where did you get this asinine idea?

“…While the vast majority of the global iPhone 15 stock will still come from China…”
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/2...y-launch-china Just one of many articles a quick Google search yields.

Not to mention all of the U.S. land China is buying up. https://americanmind.org/memo/this-l...beijings-land/

I have a friend who is an automotive electrical engineer and he was working for a company that was working with a Chinese company on battery technology. They finally ended the contract because of the blatant ways the Chinese were working to steal their proprietary technology. He was in China for this project and he left with a very low opinion of the Chinese.

I think he meant the Chinese knockoffs of iPhone.

If any company president has supply chain in China and isn't actively trying to move it, he should be fired.

[co_440i]

Apple is an American company, home slice. We don’t allow CHINESE phones, like ZTE, Huawei, etc.

Originally Posted by co_440i

The US market will never be "filled with cheap Chinese EVs." We don't even permit the import of Chinese cell phones, we're never going to let mobile PLA SIGINT platforms drive around American streets.

Are you living under a rock? Where did you get this asinine idea?

“…While the vast majority of the global iPhone 15 stock will still come from China…”
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/23869727/apple-iphone-15-india-production-supply-launch-china" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="https://www.theverge...unch-china</a> Just one of many articles a quick Google search yields.

Not to mention all of the U.S. land China is buying up. https://americanmind.org/memo/this-land-is-beijings-land/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="https://americanmind...ings-land/</a>

I have a friend who is an automotive electrical engineer and he was working for a company that was working with a Chinese company on battery technology. They finally ended the contract because of the blatant ways the Chinese were working to steal their proprietary technology. He was in China for this project and he left with a very low opinion of the Chinese.

[SteVTEC]

There's lots of smoke and mirrors around BEV's (and other things), and either you can see through that and you're on one side, or you can't and you're on the other. Most people have very little mental agility no matter how book smart they may be, so not much point in arguing.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

There's lots of smoke and mirrors around BEV's (and other things), and either you can see through that and you're on one side, or you can't and you're on the other. Most people have very little mental agility no matter how book smart they may be, so not much point in arguing.

Eh, doesn't have to be one side or the other. I think that happens but it's unfortunate.

They work for some people (probably more people than people realize), but they don't work for everyone. Price is a thing, new and used. Long term cost of fuel vs electrons is a thing. What one has access to for charging. How often you actually tow or take a road trip. Your weather. The ability to get an EV repaired if you have an issue. Reliability of a product that's both new and established at the same time.

It's a complicated subject, there's no right or wrong. Some people should own them, some should not. Government can push a little but most would agree push less than they are right now. Anyone with a firm side that can only see the good or the bad is certainly fooling themselves.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Government can push a little but most would agree push less than they are right now.

Not picking on you just a good question.
What is the right amount of Government push?
A billion? A trillion?
How about the CAFE standards adding thousands of dollar to the price of a non EV's? (Carbon Credits)

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Not picking on you just a good question.
What is the right amount of Government push?
A billion? A trillion?
How about the CAFE standards adding thousands of dollar to the price of a non EV's? (Carbon Credits)

Yeah good question. And no problem, also reminds me that I replied to SteVTEC but wasn't trying to single them out either.

A nudge in a particular direction, very slightly tilting the playing field might be OK. If (and only if) a vast majority of evidence and analysis says that it's the right way to go. But not too quickly, or we see the issues that come up. All issues are solvable eventually, and even if nothing changes we'll get through it and emerge on the other side. But with 100's of millions of people, perhaps billions when including other countries, with varying needs for cars and uses, varying abilities to buy cars, and so on I would agree we're going too quickly. The issues are coming up a little faster than it seems fair for people to deal with. What the right speed is though, I don't know.

[Car-Addicted]

One major battery break through will cause a lot of people and companies to lose a lot of money. Current EV's are likely to be the buggy whips of the 2020's.