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      07-25-2014, 05:27 AM   #265
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Hi Bradley. Thanks for the reply, I am hoping to find someone reputable here to try and diagnose this issue properly, so gonna take your advice on that.

Just to be clear, the example that I posted that you replied to was the "worst case" I have heard of this noise (on my car). Its usually quite a bit shorter and quieter. Matches 100% with the other reports of this issue. View post 1 of this thread, the other 2 examples there are an identical match to what others are reporting.

Back home from vacation have most of august to deal with this before I leave for business so hopefully over the next couple of weeks will have a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Anom3, the sound you're hearing is completely different than what most of the guys in this thread are addressing. They're addressing the single "clank" sound that is (apparently) addressed by their brake pedal procedure. The problem you're having here is that most of the people in this thread wouldn't know a valve lifter from a check valve if you laid them out in front of them.

Unfortunately, your thread is full of useless clutter now. The sound in your post #258 is not the same sound that they're addressing, so you'd be well advised to ignore those comments. They're not going to get you anywhere.

The sound in the video in #258 sounds very much to me like lifter knock, or possibly cam chain slap. Listen to the lifter knock in this video:



That is the sound of a lifter knocking on a single cylinder, which is why the rate of the knock is so slow. Notice how similar the sound is to your car though. Keep in mind that this is a truck engine, so there is only one cam lifter actuated per intake/exhaust event. In the S65, you have four valves per cylinder, so there are two cam lifters per intake/exhaust event.

The rate of knocking in your engine definitely sounds like it's once per cylinder ignition event, which would also correspond with a single cam rotation. In my opinion, your knocking is coming from one of a handful of sources:

1) Lifter knock. The lifters in the S65 are hydraulic. Low oil pressure can cause lifter knock, and you mentioned earlier that you're seeing a dip in oil pressure during startup.

2) Knock related to engine vibration. During startup, your engine spins up a large mass of metal, which takes a minute to settle in to a cycle of equilibrium. During this startup, each cylinder firing event causes a lot of shockwaves that go through the entire engine. This can cause objects that are attached to the engine and reciprocating assembly to "slap".

IMO, you need to find someone local with the talent to diagnose it. Using those stethoscopes effectively is a real trick. They also make them with metal rods attached to them, instead of the sound membrane. It allows a technician to touch it to part of an engine and pick up sounds transmitted through the material instead of the air. That is, IMO, the only way you're going to get to the bottom of this.
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      07-25-2014, 10:55 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post
Hi Bradley. Thanks for the reply, I am hoping to find someone reputable here to try and diagnose this issue properly, so gonna take your advice on that.

Just to be clear, the example that I posted that you replied to was the "worst case" I have heard of this noise (on my car). Its usually quite a bit shorter and quieter. Matches 100% with the other reports of this issue. View post 1 of this thread, the other 2 examples there are an identical match to what others are reporting.

Back home from vacation have most of august to deal with this before I leave for business so hopefully over the next couple of weeks will have a solution.
To clarify (don't want to seem argumentative ), I think you have two separate issues related to these sounds. The rapid "clatter" sound is coming from one source, and the single "clink" sound is something else. IMO, the "clink" sound is prevalent enough that I wouldn't concern myself with it. I know it bugs some of these guys, and that's a fair point, but IMO, the clatter sound is far more concerning.

Lifter knock (if that's what it is), in itself, isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's indicative of deeper issues. Plain bearings (the type found in the crank, rods, wrist pins, cam journals, etc) require adequate oil pressure, or abrasion will occur (literally metal-on-metal). If that sound is actually lifter knock, it means that there is insufficient oil pressure required to pressurize the hydraulic lifters. Insufficient lifter pressure rarely happens in isolation.

I'd have a really close look at oil pressures during startup. Make sure that the equipment used to monitor pressure is responsive enough to register momentary dips in pressure. Also make sure that they check oil pressure at different locations (if possible). You may have an oil passage blockage in a location that won't register at the sending unit for the factory monitoring location.

I'm not all that familiar with the S65, so I don't know what options are available for pressure taps. Some engines are very limited, and just about all engines require removal of an expansion plug or even drilling out a pressed-bearing and tapping a passageway to attach the equipment. A lot of techs won't even be aware that it's possible (if it even is). They'll simply monitor the factoring sending unit, which is right by the pump.

In most engines, this monitoring location is intended to tell you two things:

1) That the pump is generating pressure.
2) That the back pressure in the system is at appropriate levels.

The 1st goes when the oil pump fails. The 2nd goes when you have a worn engine (e.g., too my oil bypass at the mains). It doesn't tell you if you have a blockage somewhere in an oil passage that is preventing adequate lubrication to some part of your engine. Unfortunately, most people find out they had a blocked oil passage after an engine failure. Blocked oil passages are extremely rare, and very difficult to diagnose. Sometimes it's simply not possible to find them, because of inadequate locations to monitor oil pressure.

Troubleshooting is hard. Technicians have a bad tendency to operate only within their area of knowledge. Basically, most are blind to the things that they haven't seen before. I expect you're going to have to push someone to get to the bottom of this.
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      07-25-2014, 11:03 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post
Just to be clear, the example that I posted that you replied to was the "worst case" I have heard of this noise (on my car). Its usually quite a bit shorter and quieter. Matches 100% with the other reports of this issue. View post 1 of this thread, the other 2 examples there are an identical match to what others are reporting.
I want to reply to this specifically. I went back and listened to all the videos in the first post. Trust me, the sound you're hearing is not the same sound that a lot of people here are describing. The one video where it sounds like a single "clink" sound is actually just a really short series of the rapid clatter.

I'm not a mechanic by trade, but I've rebuilt entire engines, tearing them down to the engine block. I've even rebuilt a transmission before, which is a fucking nightmare btw. I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert, I'm not, but I have a feeling that a lot of people in this thread lack even a basic understanding of how engines work. You've got to be really careful whose advice you take on the internet. Just because two things sound similar to a layman, doesn't mean they are related.

It's like when someone says "the internet is down". The internet is not actually down, but from a layman's perspective, they can't access any websites, so to them "it's down". The truth is that there is some detailed thing wrong, that only a person with the appropriate insight in to the operation of computer networks can even see, because they know where to look. There's a lot of "the internet is down" going on in this thread.
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      07-25-2014, 12:59 PM   #268
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The way forward is to find out what happens in the first few seconds when the engine is started. The fact that there is no noise for the first one or two seconds almost certainly discounts a lack oil pressure as the cause.
I think that the start procedure is very similar to the one used by the E46 M3. The VANOS is in the default position for start up, the engine cranks and fires and after two or three seconds the ECU take over control of the VANOS and makes an adjustment. At that instant a noise is produced in some cars by that action of the ECU - understanding what that action is should point to a fix.
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      07-25-2014, 05:07 PM   #269
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The issue could still be low oil pressure in combination with some other event or condition that does not occur until some time has elapsed.
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      07-25-2014, 11:47 PM   #270
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agreed.

as you said in the previous post, the next step is to have someone who REALLY knows what they are doing look at it.

unfortunately for me, that means about 100KM from where i am located... including leaving the car there for at least 1 night :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I want to reply to this specifically. I went back and listened to all the videos in the first post. Trust me, the sound you're hearing is not the same sound that a lot of people here are describing. The one video where it sounds like a single "clink" sound is actually just a really short series of the rapid clatter.

I'm not a mechanic by trade, but I've rebuilt entire engines, tearing them down to the engine block. I've even rebuilt a transmission before, which is a fucking nightmare btw. I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert, I'm not, but I have a feeling that a lot of people in this thread lack even a basic understanding of how engines work. You've got to be really careful whose advice you take on the internet. Just because two things sound similar to a layman, doesn't mean they are related.

It's like when someone says "the internet is down". The internet is not actually down, but from a layman's perspective, they can't access any websites, so to them "it's down". The truth is that there is some detailed thing wrong, that only a person with the appropriate insight in to the operation of computer networks can even see, because they know where to look. There's a lot of "the internet is down" going on in this thread.
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      07-25-2014, 11:51 PM   #271
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your insight into the vanos cold start procedure is the best idea so far.

i know the E46 and E92 vanos differ very much (high pressure vs low pressure etc etc), but i would not be surprised in the slightest if the E92 vanos retained some of the properties of the high pressure vanos... like the cold start procedure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The way forward is to find out what happens in the first few seconds when the engine is started. The fact that there is no noise for the first one or two seconds almost certainly discounts a lack oil pressure as the cause.
I think that the start procedure is very similar to the one used by the E46 M3. The VANOS is in the default position for start up, the engine cranks and fires and after two or three seconds the ECU take over control of the VANOS and makes an adjustment. At that instant a noise is produced in some cars by that action of the ECU - understanding what that action is should point to a fix.
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      07-25-2014, 11:57 PM   #272
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i have mentioned this previously in some replies, but thought i would throw it in:

there is no doubt in my case this is somehow related to the oil system.

after switching over to 0w40 the noise is much different.

a) quicker and quieter, every time. in the last 15+ cold starts, i have yet to have it 'really bad'. i know 'really bad' is subjective, but there has been a clear and definite improvement over what it was like before.

b) the noise 'doesn't happen' quite a bit more frequently now.

c) the car can sit for a bit longer and not exhibit this noise.
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      07-26-2014, 03:23 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post

there is no doubt in my case this is somehow related to the oil system.
after switching over to 0w40 the noise is much different.
The thing is, my car at >50k miles doesn't make this noise with 10W60.
So it would seem likely that some component of the VANOS in your car has worn to an extent that it produces the noise. Its not out of the question that using an oil with a lower viscosity will affect the way the VANOS functions to some degree. The VANOS is driven by the oil pressure from the main oil pump which is a constant flow type with a pressure relief valve. At normal operating temps the oil flow rate will be the same whether you use 0W40 or 10W60 (the oil pressure created by both oils being lower than the pressure relief setting) however in a cold start the flow rate will be higher for a 0W40 than the 10W60 as the thicker oil will hit the pressure relief setting before the thinner oil....although I don't know what the effect of that would be on the VANOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post
i know the E46 and E92 vanos differ very much (high pressure vs low pressure etc etc), but i would not be surprised in the slightest if the E92 vanos retained some of the properties of the high pressure vanos... like the cold start procedure...
IIRC the ECU for the E9x M3 is produced by the same company as the one for the E46 M3. I think it is normal that some software would be carried over and the cold start procedure is likely to be one of them. As I noted the E46 M3s ECU does not look at the VANOS until two seconds after the engine has fired so it would be a massive coincidence that the noise heard in the E9x M3 just happens to occur at a couple of seconds after the engine fired if it wasn't a function of the same start procedure.
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      07-26-2014, 10:21 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post
i have mentioned this previously in some replies, but thought i would throw it in:

there is no doubt in my case this is somehow related to the oil system.

after switching over to 0w40 the noise is much different.

a) quicker and quieter, every time. in the last 15+ cold starts, i have yet to have it 'really bad'. i know 'really bad' is subjective, but there has been a clear and definite improvement over what it was like before.

b) the noise 'doesn't happen' quite a bit more frequently now.

c) the car can sit for a bit longer and not exhibit this noise.
Yep, this definitely corroborates it. Not sure how familiar you are with oil ratings, but there's a gross simplification:

0W-40

The "0W" part is how the oil flows when it's cold. An oil rated at "0w" flows like a straight 0 weight oil at operating temperature.

The "40" part means the oil flows like 40 weight at operating temperature.

The lighter weight oil flows more freely past orifices in the engine that maintain oil pressure in the various systems. This is a dual-edged sword. Oil that flows more freely will result in a lower oil pressure when run through the same engine. However, this isn't always a bad thing when talking about the low-temp rating of an oil, because the oil already flow so much thicker when cold.

It sounds as if the effect in your engine is that the free flowing oil is able to flow in to whatever systems are causing the knock more quickly, which prevents the clacking altogether.
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      07-26-2014, 10:44 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The thing is, my car at >50k miles doesn't make this noise with 10W60.
So it would seem likely that some component of the VANOS in your car has worn to an extent that it produces the noise. Its not out of the question that using an oil with a lower viscosity will affect the way the VANOS functions to some degree. The VANOS is driven by the oil pressure from the main oil pump which is a constant flow type with a pressure relief valve. At normal operating temps the oil flow rate will be the same whether you use 0W40 or 10W60 (the oil pressure created by both oils being lower than the pressure relief setting) however in a cold start the flow rate will be higher for a 0W40 than the 10W60 as the thicker oil will hit the pressure relief setting before the thinner oil....although I don't know what the effect of that would be on the VANOS.



IIRC the ECU for the E9x M3 is produced by the same company as the one for the E46 M3. I think it is normal that some software would be carried over and the cold start procedure is likely to be one of them. As I noted the E46 M3s ECU does not look at the VANOS until two seconds after the engine has fired so it would be a massive coincidence that the noise heard in the E9x M3 just happens to occur at a couple of seconds after the engine fired if it wasn't a function of the same start procedure.
Siemens.
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      07-26-2014, 10:45 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anom3 View Post
i have mentioned this previously in some replies, but thought i would throw it in:

there is no doubt in my case this is somehow related to the oil system.

after switching over to 0w40 the noise is much different.

a) quicker and quieter, every time. in the last 15+ cold starts, i have yet to have it 'really bad'. i know 'really bad' is subjective, but there has been a clear and definite improvement over what it was like before.

b) the noise 'doesn't happen' quite a bit more frequently now.

c) the car can sit for a bit longer and not exhibit this noise.
This is a better phrase than: "way worse"
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      07-28-2014, 10:31 AM   #277
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Does anyone know if there is an "S65 Engine Technical Docs" document like the one for the S55 found here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1015603

That doc has a very detailed view of the oil passages and a listing of the components. That would be tremendously beneficial for anyone trying to diagnose this issue. I mean, look at this:

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      07-28-2014, 11:27 AM   #278
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There is this pdf:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/pdf/BMW-M3...nformation.pdf
Page 44
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      07-30-2014, 06:54 AM   #279
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Car never had this problem and the car has been on 0w-40 for months. Now have exact problem reported by OP. These are the events that took place and led up to it.

1. oil changed same (0w-40). Did not notice an issue and nothing special about this oil change than any other).
2. changed sparks plugs and forgot to connect one coil before starting car.
3. started car and saw a weird engine light and reduced power mode, car shutoff.
4. checked the spark plugs and found that disconnected coil and connected the coil.
5. restarted the car and all was fine. No more reduced engine noise, no new weird sounds.
Restarted a few more times and easy driving all was well.

6. Next morning start car and witnessed the exact noise reported by the OP (exact noise)
Observed the problem occurs after the car has been sitting (4 is enough to cause it and maybe less).

I hope there was no internal damage but something is now screwed up.
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      07-30-2014, 03:58 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Car never had this problem and the car has been on 0w-40 for months. Now have exact problem reported by OP. These are the events that took place and led up to it.

1. oil changed same (0w-40). Did not notice an issue and nothing special about this oil change than any other).
2. changed sparks plugs and forgot to connect one coil before starting car.
3. started car and saw a weird engine light and reduced power mode, car shutoff.
4. checked the spark plugs and found that disconnected coil and connected the coil.
5. restarted the car and all was fine. No more reduced engine noise, no new weird sounds.
Restarted a few more times and easy driving all was well.

6. Next morning start car and witnessed the exact noise reported by the OP (exact noise)
Observed the problem occurs after the car has been sitting (4 is enough to cause it and maybe less).

I hope there was no internal damage but something is now screwed up.
DCT or 6MT ?
Built year ? And how many miles on it ?
When you take the car out for about 100 Miles... the next morning when you start is there also the clunk noise ?
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      07-30-2014, 06:11 PM   #281
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Build July 2008.
6mt
Haven't done 100 miles in one shot.
Problem started two days ago.
96K miles.

What's most relevant is that it was likely caused by the premature startup with one coil unplugged.
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      07-30-2014, 06:39 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Build July 2008.
6mt
Haven't done 100 miles in one shot.
Problem started two days ago.
96K miles.

What's most relevant is that it was likely caused by the premature startup with one coil unplugged.
I see..
I have the clunk noise only when it sits for 5-6 days in my garage ,and only on first cold start ,when daily driven i've no clunk noise , when i take her out for 100-150 Miles the clunk noise is gone ,but when i don't drive for a week ...first cold start clunk noise is back .
You have 6MT so the brake procedure will not work ,it's only working for DCT cars .
About your coil unplugged...personal i'm thinking that's not the reason for the clunk noise .
My question is...before your oil change , how long was your car "not started" ? By experience i know when not daily driven...we can get the clunk noise,but only on first start of the day when engine is cold .
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      07-31-2014, 01:52 AM   #283
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just fyi, if this did start right after u started up without one coil... its most likely not software related...

i have upgraded my ECU and cleared my adaptations multiple times, and the noise was always there... so by the sounds of it, something physical happened in your motor

im no expert, maybe someone else can chime in on what happens when the car is started without one coil? curious to know how that ties in with everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Build July 2008.
6mt
Haven't done 100 miles in one shot.
Problem started two days ago.
96K miles.

What's most relevant is that it was likely caused by the premature startup with one coil unplugged.
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      07-31-2014, 02:19 AM   #284
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I would have thought that starting the car with one coil disconnected for a short time wouldn't do any harm at all...it would just run on 7 cylinders.
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      07-31-2014, 03:14 AM   #285
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perhaps this is related to the spark plug change rather then running with 1 coil disconnected...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I would have thought that starting the car with one coil disconnected for a short time wouldn't do any harm at all...it would just run on 7 cylinders.
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      07-31-2014, 03:15 AM   #286
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if possible, i would try switching back to your old spark plugs and seeing if the noise disappears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
Car never had this problem and the car has been on 0w-40 for months. Now have exact problem reported by OP. These are the events that took place and led up to it.

1. oil changed same (0w-40). Did not notice an issue and nothing special about this oil change than any other).
2. changed sparks plugs and forgot to connect one coil before starting car.
3. started car and saw a weird engine light and reduced power mode, car shutoff.
4. checked the spark plugs and found that disconnected coil and connected the coil.
5. restarted the car and all was fine. No more reduced engine noise, no new weird sounds.
Restarted a few more times and easy driving all was well.

6. Next morning start car and witnessed the exact noise reported by the OP (exact noise)
Observed the problem occurs after the car has been sitting (4 is enough to cause it and maybe less).

I hope there was no internal damage but something is now screwed up.
Appreciate 0
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