F82 M4 offer enough benefit over the e92 M3 to justify jumping into it?

[BobS]

Originally Posted by Ezio

more of the problem is not power being left on the table. but the ability to tune the car. it seems like BMW doesn't want people tuning the car. F10 M5s have had very tough time getting tunes. and people think the M4 is only going to get tougher

I agree. I think the new m3/m4 will attract some pretty big tuners though so I bet they crack it eventually. Time will tell!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by BobS

I agree. I think the new m3/m4 will attract some pretty big tuners though so I bet they crack it eventually. Time will tell!

the same tuners that tune the E90s M3s and E90 335s most likely.

even if they can get a solid tune made. we might be talking years until it hits the market.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Ezio

the same tuners that tune the E90s M3s and E90 335s most likely.

even if they can get a solid tune made. we might be talking years until it hits the market.

there are completely different tuners for both of those cars, so its not the same companies although there is some overlap. there is also much more incentive to tune turbo'd cars than N/A cars because the gains are much more substantial, therefore the tune is a better bang for the buck and sells better

I believe the m3 will be cracked faster because the tuner market for the m3 is much bigger than the m5. the m3 will sell better, and owners are much more likely to mod their cars. the aftermarket companies know this.

just look at the amount of parts for the e60 m5 vs e9x m3

every time a new car comes out people say the same thing about OMG its gonna be impossible to break the ECU. but guess what, it ALWAYS breaks. always

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

every time a new car comes out people say the same thing about OMG its gonna be impossible to break the ECU. but guess what, it ALWAYS breaks. always

Question is, good break or bad break?

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

There is no doubt it will out perform the stock E9x M3 in every performance statistic.

It will out accelerate, out brake, and out lap stock E9x M3.

There, fixed that for you

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

there are completely different tuners for both of those cars, so its not the same companies although there is some overlap. there is also much more incentive to tune turbo'd cars than N/A cars because the gains are much more substantial, therefore the tune is a better bang for the buck and sells better

I believe the m3 will be cracked faster because the tuner market for the m3 is much bigger than the m5. the m3 will sell better, and owners are much more likely to mod their cars. the aftermarket companies know this.

just look at the amount of parts for the e60 m5 vs e9x m3

every time a new car comes out people say the same thing about OMG its gonna be impossible to break the ECU. but guess what, it ALWAYS breaks. always

i do see your point. and i do understand the tune/turbo thing.

even E90 335s took decent amount of time to get a solid tune from JB4. and you know the 335s are much mass produced than M3s. and just about every 335i car on this forums has a JB4.

i will agree that i would be surprised if the M4 is completely untunedable due to BMWs OEM software.

i think anyone planning on doing a down pipe-tune mods to get a 500HP M4 this year is living in la la land though.

[BobS]

My point is.... don't surprised if other names like AMS jump into the tuning scene on the new turbo M3/M4. The M platform is more desirable to tuners and should have a lot of companies concentrating on it. The m5 is more of a niche car and IMO shouldn't be used as a good comparison for how fast a tune is available for the new s55

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by BobS

My point is.... don't surprised if other names like AMS jump into the tuning scene on the new turbo M3/M4. The M platform is more desirable to tuners and should have a lot of companies concentrating on it. The m5 is more of a niche car and IMO shouldn't be used as a good comparison for how fast a tune is available for the new s55

I totally agree with you, I'm sure A LOT of companys are gonna try to make tunes for this car, I also think both 335s tuners and e9x M3 tuners will want to work on that platform, there is a big market for it so why would'nt they!

[whats77inaname]

Everyone says they're going to crack the ECUs. Aren't the F10s using 2048-bit encryption? Do you know how much computing power it's going to take to crack that? If by some *slim* chance that someone does, it's foolish to think that BMW simply won't release another software update and simply change the key. Given that, I can imagine the F8X won't be cracked as soon as everyone thinks, b/c it will carry *at least* 2048-bit or possibly higher.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i really struggle to understand why you think the S55 is going to sound really good with a exhaust. these new turbo engines are not made for sound. which is why active sound is here.

Go listen to a 1M with an exhaust. Akra valve open, and tell me it doesnt sound good.
N54 motor in that car.

[BobS]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Everyone says they're going to crack the ECUs. Aren't the F10s using 2048-bit encryption? Do you know how much computing power it's going to take to crack that? If by some *slim* chance that someone does, it's foolish to think that BMW simply won't release another software update and simply change the key. Given that, I can imagine the F8X won't be cracked as soon as everyone thinks, b/c it will carry *at least* 2048-bit or possibly higher.

The piggy back companies should be able to get something together quickly.... the flash companies will have issues but eventually they will get it.

Even if a tune is developed, the turbos make 18psi stock, its not a n54 where you can go from 8 psi stock to 19psi with just a tune. Lets hope the s55 is even half as tuneable as the n54.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Everyone says they're going to crack the ECUs. Aren't the F10s using 2048-bit encryption? Do you know how much computing power it's going to take to crack that? If by some *slim* chance that someone does, it's foolish to think that BMW simply won't release another software update and simply change the key. Given that, I can imagine the F8X won't be cracked as soon as everyone thinks, b/c it will carry *at least* 2048-bit or possibly higher.

Case in point the IS-F, that ecu is still not cracked.

Originally Posted by BobS

Even if a tune is developed, the turbos make 18psi stock, its not a n54 where you can go from 8 psi stock to 19psi with just a tune. Lets hope the s55 is even half as tuneable as the n54.

This

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Go listen to a 1M with an exhaust. Akra valve open, and tell me it doesnt sound good.
N54 motor in that car.

i went and listened to a few vids. just me put it in different terms. while i wont say its sounds bad. its just not my style. would rather have a vette with a 6.2L v8.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by BobS

The piggy back companies should be able to get something together quickly.... the flash companies will have issues but eventually they will get it.

Even if a tune is developed, the turbos make 18psi stock, its not a n54 where you can go from 8 psi stock to 19psi with just a tune. Lets hope the s55 is even half as tuneable as the n54.

If you take the Mistu Evo as an exemple, they already run more then 18psi in stock form but they can still get a 150hp increase with simple tune and bolt-ons! Its not like the S55 was running 26psi like a stock CLA45 AMG!

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i went and listened to a few vids. just me put it in different terms. while i wont say its sounds bad. its just not my style. would rather have a vette with a 6.2L v8.

The new 620hp Z06 will be a beast!!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

The new 620hp Z06 will be a beast!!

i just prefer a s/c V8 for sound and power. what can i say

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i just prefer a s/c V8 for sound and power. what can i say

that's for sure, I'm the most happy human being everytime I step on the gaz!!

ps: If all the roads were made in tunnnel I'd be even more happy!

[BobS]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

If you take the Mistu Evo as an exemple, they already run more then 18psi in stock form but they can still get a 150hp increase with simple tune and bolt-ons! Its not like the S55 was running 26psi like a stock CLA45 AMG!

True... but the stock housing turbos on the n54 are maxed at 21 ish psi.... they are too small to run anymore boost. How much bigger are the turbo's on the s55? From what i've read, they are slightly larger than the turbos on the n54 and smaller than stg 2 upgraded turbos like RB/Vargas for the n54. Remember, the s55 is based off of the n55, and bmw is trying to have zero lag, so it makes sense they aren't much larger. If the turbo's were signigicantly larger there would be lag. The waste gates on the s55 are electronically controlled rather than vacuum controlled (like the n54) that will present a tuning challenge.

I'm sure it will have nice gains, all turbo motors pretty much do, i'm just not so sure its n54ish gains!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

that's for sure, I'm the most happy human being everytime I step on the gaz!!

ps: If all the roads were made in tunnnel I'd be even more happy!

if the roads were tunnels you better believe my already bad MPG would get even worse.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by BobS

The piggy back companies should be able to get something together quickly.... the flash companies will have issues but eventually they will get it.

I'm not inclined to think so. You can bet your @$$ that BMW has been learning from the aftermarket piggy back systems that people are using on the F10s and modifying the F8X setup to make it even harder to tamper with.

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Case in point the IS-F, that ecu is still not cracked.

Exactly! That car has been on the market for 6 years now, and people said the same thing about it: someone will crack it eventually. Not likely. Now that the *new* IS-F is rolling out, how much effort do you think there is going to be to crack the old one?

[BobS]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

I'm not inclined to think so. You can bet your @$$ that BMW has been learning from the aftermarket piggy back systems that people are using on the F10s and modifying the F8X setup to make it even harder to tamper with.

Eh.. not sure what they could do to stop a piggy back. In a over simplified explanation, all the device does is connect to the ecm, intercept the signals the ecm is sending and tricks the ecm into applying more boost than is needed. Its more complicated and safer than that, but thats the basic idea. It shouldn't take long for a piggy tuner to enter the s55 game.

[hellrotm]

Not only will the ecu be much harder to crack. I bet BMW will be even more strict with modified cars, especially now that their number one performance car has turbos. They will have new ways to detect tunes and piggy backs, whether they have been removed or not.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by BobS

Eh.. not sure what they could do to stop a piggy back. In a over simplified explanation, all the device does is connect to the ecm, intercept the signals the ecm is sending and tricks the ecm into applying more boost than is needed. Its more complicated and safer than that, but thats the basic idea. It shouldn't take long for a piggy tuner to enter the s55 game.

I am well aware of what a piggy back does, thank you. I am currently running a Procede, as well as past experience in the Honda game.

In regards to your statement, "not sure what they could do to stop a piggy back", ask the F10 guys how those are working out for them. As long as you don't plan to run the car over 130ish, they work out fine. Airstrip events + limp mode = Achilles' heel. As per this previous post by Longboarder:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

The M3/4 will be terrific.

For those of you thinking that someone will quickly come out with a tune...lol.

The dual Bosch ECU's have proved impossible to fully crack. Which is why the M5/M6s have disappeared from our SoCal Airstrip roll-on events. With a tune or downpipes, M5/6 owners are getting limps at various speeds as the BMW engineers have hidden code in various places which so far have been undetectable.

Increases in torque over specified parameters over a certain duration will trigger limp. I have a buddy with a $6K tune and another buddy with $3K downpipes (no tune) and it happens to them at around 130mph.

The new M3/4 will have the same ECU and likely with even more sophisticated stop limit protocol and already 18.1psi of boost from the turbos. The best tuners/hackers will need years before a viable tuning product is even available.

Downpipes causing limp mode? And you don't think piggy backs are going to do the same? IMO, the only way this problem is going to go away is another ECU setup altogether.