M3 GTS vs 911 GT3 RS and F10 M5 - Nurburgring Nordschleife

[Suave]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Purists are what made ///M legendary. The F8X is one fast vacuum cleaner, efficient, fast and clinical but having test driven one twice, the sensation is absent. Sports cars at the bare minimum need to be visceral and imperfect all at the same. It needs to make you work harder at attaining and retaining speed.

A true sports car needs to have character, unfortunately the new F8X does not do it for me. Of course, this is subjective. I respect the engineering in the F8X but its become an iphone (to quote JC) you respect it but do not LOVE it.

That's what the OP is referring to.

The E9X is not perfect but its more than the sum of its parts however in the interest of full disclosure, I miss my E46 M3 more because of how quirky and sensational it was at full beans. Pure Character.

The only other currently on sale that get's close to the sensation is the new Vette. Test drive it and go WOT once, you'll know exactly what I mean.

All good points checkmate and I did get that from OP's response. As I responded just above you clearly have a specific preference in what you are looking for which makes finding the right car much easier. You are indeed a purist and absolutely what has helped made this car legendary. However purists are maybe 5% of the M market at best so cars must accommodate the larger population. I am right in the middle of being a Purist and dedicated enthusiast and want more than a stickshift and barely optioned cars to satisfy my needs. I would say, in my own opinion only, that the car has plenty of character and the M engineers really built a car that delivers performance while notably expanding their target market who actually buys these cars. The change to Turbos is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary evolution that all Euro Cars have already made. I am from the camp that believes that a high priced performance car should not make you struggle to extract performance that can be used by the 99.9% people who drive this car including myself. That was my biggest complaint with the E-90 where it was difficult to wind the car out to enough revs and torque in real world traffic around the Northeast to make a commute fun. However when you did get to that point it is a LOT of fun. In the F-80 it has more real world usable performance with the improved torque. On a track both cars really shine without these constraints and to be clear the E-90 is the better sounding car for sure.

Edit: I did consider and drive the new Vette which is a great car indeed. However the Chevy Invite event I attended also had an average age of 65 and all the conversations had nothing to do about the car. I was out after that

[Swiss Chris]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

This is a great way of putting it, I love running up and down the gears on this car, it's like playing a musical instrument.

Exactly

Originally Posted by ECAM3

Awesome car/driving. This is why some of us ordered very late production E92 M3's and that GTS has got to be on a whole different level! Though it is not for me, the new car is clearly a beast and it is great to see the new owners enjoying them as well.

You're absolutely right dude

Originally Posted by checkmate

Purists are what made ///M legendary. The F8X is one fast vacuum cleaner, efficient, fast and clinical but having test driven one twice, the sensation is absent. Sports cars at the bare minimum need to be visceral and imperfect all at the same. It needs to make you work harder at attaining and retaining speed.

A true sports car needs to have character, unfortunately the new F8X does not do it for me. Of course, this is subjective. I respect the engineering in the F8X but its become an iphone (to quote JC) you respect it but do not LOVE it.

That's what the OP is referring to.

The E9X is not perfect but its more than the sum of its parts however in the interest of full disclosure, I miss my E46 M3 more because of how quirky and sensational it was at full beans. Pure Character.

The only other currently on sale that get's close to the sensation is the new Vette. Test drive it and go WOT once, you'll know exactly what I mean.

Totally agree

Would just add the 911 GT3 to the list of currently on sale pure driving machines

[Suave]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

Yes, because that's what my raving post history about both cars indicates. Did I touch a sore spot? I didn't bother reading the rest of it since it sounds like you're just trying to justify your purchase to yourself and want the rest of the forum to cup your balls while you do it. Pass.

edit: fine, I did read some of it, what... am I supposed to do work while in the office? We can get along... to a point, as long as you'll admit my future LCI/ZCP F80 will be faster than your launch-year F80, and my catless E92 sounds better than both.

And yeah, the Boxter S does suck. A hairdresser's car for a dentist's salary.

I agree with you 100% on both your points. The sound of the e-92 at 8000+ RPMs is heaven on earth!

I also have you down as first on my list for the 2016 LCI/ZCP ED trip as I will be right there with you to upgrade. This will be the car that I keep until the next generation arrives.

Lastly, I would not say the Boxster S sucks at all but it was lacking for me in areas I could not just let go and accept. This was actually intended to be a company car for use with clients but I had to veto the boss on this one. The F-80 however was 100% my decision and my own personal purchase.

[checkmate]

Originally Posted by Suave

All good points checkmate and I did get that from OP's response. As I responded just above you clearly have a specific preference in what you are looking for which makes finding the right car much easier. You are indeed a purist and absolutely what has helped made this car legendary. However purists are maybe 5% of the M market at best so cars must accommodate the larger population. I am right in the middle of being a Purist and dedicated enthusiast and want more than a stickshift and barely optioned cars to satisfy my needs. I would say, in my own opinion only, that the car has plenty of character and the M engineers really built a car that delivers performance while notably expanding their target market who actually buys these cars. The change to Turbos is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary evolution that all Euro Cars have already made. I am from the camp that believes that a high priced performance car should not make you struggle to extract performance that can be used by the 99.9% people who drive this car including myself. That was my biggest complaint with the E-90 where it was difficult to wind the car out to enough revs and torque in real world traffic around the Northeast to make a commute fun. However when you did get to that point it is a LOT of fun. In the F-80 it has more real world usable performance with the improved torque. On a track both cars really shine without these constraints and to be clear the E-90 is the better sounding car for sure.

Got it. Keep in mind, I DD my car into BMore at least 4 times a week. The lack of low end tq can be easily remedied by shifting . My concern with the F8X is that people keep touting the low end torque when a 335 can easily do the same thing for DD use.

Why is the S65 and/or previous ///M engines legendary? #BECAUSERACECAR.

Case and point-ALMS/Tudor + DTM, ask any race engineer, they will prefer N/A motors anytime and all the time. The new M4 DTM still has a good-ole fashioned N/A V8. Same with the Z4 GT3.

The S55 engine has no racing pedigree or history associated with it. Hopefully with time and regulation, that will change.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by Suave

I agree with you 100% on both your points. The sound of the e-92 at 8000+ RPMs is heaven on earth!

I also have you down as first on my list for the 2016 LCI/ZCP ED trip as I will be right there with you to upgrade. This will be the car that I keep until the next generation arrives.

Lastly, I would not say the Boxster S sucks at all but it was lacking for me in areas I could not just let go and accept. This was actually intended to be a company car for use with clients but I had to veto the boss on this one. The F-80 however was 100% my decision and my own personal purchase.

Oof, would love to do ED trip, but that may delay the purchase another year. Definitely on the bucket-list, though. It'd be cool to do a run on the Nordschleife with another enthusiast, so they can witness me turn off DSC by force of habit and ride the torque wall all the way into a real wall/tree/other cars.

Wait wait wait... what is this measured discussion going on here? Stop being reasonable, dammit, we currently drive different generations of M, so we're supposed to be ranting and raving and feudin'. Quick, say something about torque so I can complain about turdbros!

Originally Posted by Chris-507

Would just add the 911 GT3 to the list of currently on sale pure driving machines

When it comes to pure driving machines, I have a feeling the M2 will have rigor mortis-levels of boner-induction.

[UBER ///M3]

Originally Posted by Chris-507

I hit 7'54, following the well known black/gold Schirmer M3 with two very small yellow flags, some road works down to Fuchsröhre, and oïl in Kallenhart.
Beside this, I take part to the "BMW M Fascination Nürburgring" in a few weeks, so I hope I will be under 7'40 next season.

Your E92 seem to look absolutely stunning, I hope to see you in Nürburg

Yeah I\m going for sub 8 minute, but you're far more advanced and better driver than I am. I ONLY have 39 total laps after this past weekend and just learn from very good drivers. I wish to do some track days and get some instruction. I think for sure next trip I'll be sub 8 for sure F430 blocked me killing my time and yellow flag for my 8:05. As long as its fun/ safe driving it what matters really. I sure hope next season I'm 7:45 range, I just don't get enough track time bc I live way down in Bavaria and its 4 hours one way to The Ring. Hopefully I see you next trip and be safe while making those awesome fast times Also thank you its my ringtool, just saving for a cage then store it in Adenau next summer (cheaper for me and saves tires from my long drive)

[Suave]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Got it. Keep in mind, I DD my car into BMore at least 4 times a week. The lack of low end tq can be easily remedied by shifting . My concern with the F8X is that people keep touting the low end torque when a 335 can easily do the same thing for DD use.

Why is the S65 and/or previous ///M engines legendary? #BECAUSERACECAR.

Case and point-ALMS/Tudor + DTM, ask any race engineer, they will prefer N/A motors anytime and all the time. The new M4 DTM still has a good-ole fashioned N/A V8. Same with the Z4 GT3.

The S55 engine has no racing pedigree or history associated with it. Hopefully with time and regulation, that will change.

Good point I agree about the racing pedigree. I know for sure of race teams that are planning on using this engine in EU races later this year in limited runs. The F-1 cars have already opened the door with their mandated changes so its only a matter of time right now.

[123sub]

The sound of a N/A, and the reason i will stop buying M after the E92. M = sky high rpm and a lovely sound. Yes, a M4 are stronger than E92M3, but it will never get that lovely sound.

[Swiss Chris]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

(...)

I just don't get enough track time bc I live way down in Bavaria and its 4 hours one way to The Ring. Hopefully I see you next trip and be safe while making those awesome fast times Also thank you its my ringtool, just saving for a cage then store it in Adenau next summer (cheaper for me and saves tires from my long drive)

I will probably do the same next season, some take care of you car for 60€/month. Please tell me if you have a good plan

I live 650km away from Nürburg and I'd like to go on the NS 3 or 4 times next year

Grüsse

[UBER ///M3]

Originally Posted by Chris-507

I will probably do the same next season, some take care of you car for 60€/month. Please tell me if you have a good plan

I live 650km away from Nürburg and I'd like to go on the NS 3 or 4 times next year

Grüsse

Yeah that's what I found also, which is a good deal. I'll see you next time buddy, Tschüss

[SPJR]

Awesome driving and video

[Loft23]

That M5 ring taxi is so fast on the straights.

Love your driving! I can only dream of having your skills on the track.

[ChuckD05]

Originally Posted by Suave

Thank you for providing more thoughts and appreciate that your thoughts are subjective as everybody else is on the forum. I sense that you have a deep emotional connection with your E92 and the sensory experience is your top priority which once you are hooked on a particular car it can be rather impossible to change. The basis for your opinion has little to do with the actual performance of the car ( which the F8x exceeds in every regard) which I can respect and you acknowledge. It also important to compare a stock e9x to a stock F8x when commenting. Throw in 15K of upgrades to any car and surely one would be tempted to comment on how a track car is better than the replacement model. I can't wait until we start seeing a stripped out M4 for the track to see how much improvement on times we see.

On this forum there is a strong focus on sound but I must respectfully disagree with you as I think that the new M3/M4 stock sounds very good and especially at load. I think you will really enjoy the new M Performance exhaust as it does provide a huge boost in volume and tone of the car although it would be too much for me to use for Daily Driving. I also have to say that that I find the new steering and suspension on a different level than previous generation as well. The adaptive suspension was hugely well received by so many pushing the car on racetracks including pro race drivers. The steering is as good as one can expect these days for a electric setup and quite precise at turn-in I have to say. I get what you are saying about knowing what is going at the wheels in terms of feedback but I do not worry about it as much since the new Adaptive suspension does a amazing job at handling road conditions where in the past the driver would have to make much slower split second decisions to adjust. This is where the purist splits apart from other types of drivers such as me. To me a purists are always the hardest to adapt or change and dead set in their ways. It will be interesting to see how time changes these views and maybe yours. Wish you well and keep those videos coming!

this post is obserd on so many levels.. everything the driver of this car in the video explained is exactly why the e9x s65 will forever be superior. Like he said its not about speed or times, its a better more driver focused machine that interacts with the driver in a special way. He states its subjective many times as well and its very obvious why he prefers the M as a drivers car as he drives them on the tracks, etc. You appreciate technology and progression which the m4 has but his points are not arguable. They are all facts.

I will say though, to say the m4 sounds anywhere near as good as the m3 is ludacris.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Purists are what made ///M legendary. The F8X is one fast vacuum cleaner, efficient, fast and clinical but having test driven one twice, the sensation is absent. Sports cars at the bare minimum need to be visceral and imperfect all at the same. It needs to make you work harder at attaining and retaining speed.
A true sports car needs to have character, unfortunately the new F8X does not do it for me. Of course, this is subjective. I respect the engineering in the F8X but its become an iphone (to quote JC) you respect it but do not LOVE it.

That's what the OP is referring to.

The E9X is not perfect but its more than the sum of its parts however in the interest of full disclosure, I miss my E46 M3 more because of how quirky and sensational it was at full beans. Pure Character.

The only other currently on sale that get's close to the sensation is the new Vette. Test drive it and go WOT once, you'll know exactly what I mean.

I think you nailed it. You have to keep the revs up to get the most out of the S65, and it is soooo rewarding when you do. I test drove the F8x and it's a great platform for sure, but any pedal stomper can get in and drive it fast.

[Suave]

@chuckd05
Yeah sorry but to open with "why the S65 will forever be superior" you already lost me with the fanboy comment. Please enlighten me regarding your experience driving the E9x and the F8x on street and track to qualify your opinion. Just reading opinions, taking 20 minute test drives, sitting in a passenger seat, or reading articles does not cut it at all. I also never said the sound of the F8x is better than than the E9x which as I have posted in same thread is heaven on earth at full RPM. I love the car and the different experience it offers. The sound of the F8x is just different and a great sounding turbo engine in its own right. The F8x is the most track ready M car ever made stock from factory. What this car can handle is beyond the limits of the e9x and the biggest overall generation upgrade out of these cars in the past. I appreciate the OPs comments but for you to say there all facts and yet acknowledge they are subjective you lost me again. Hell where do you live again? I will invite you to a track day and you can run both these cars back to back, create your opinion and then let's have some civil discourse. Hmmm This may be lucrative business idea

[Narek]

In the most respectful way possible: I wish I could drive like that.

[ChuckD05]

Originally Posted by Suave

@chuckd05
Yeah sorry but to open with "why the S65 will forever be superior" you already lost me with the fanboy comment. Please enlighten me regarding your experience driving the E9x and the F8x on street and track to qualify your opinion. Just reading opinions, taking 20 minute test drives, sitting in a passenger seat, or reading articles does not cut it at all. I also never said the sound of the F8x is better than than the E9x which as I have posted in same thread is heaven on earth at full RPM. I love the car and the different experience it offers. The sound of the F8x is just different and a great sounding turbo engine in its own right. The F8x is the most track ready M car ever made stock from factory. What this car can handle is beyond the limits of the e9x and the biggest overall generation upgrade out of these cars in the past. I appreciate the OPs comments but for you to say there all facts and yet acknowledge they are subjective you lost me again. Hell where do you live again? I will invite you to a track day and you can run both these cars back to back, create your opinion and then let's have some civil discourse. Hmmm This may be lucrative business idea

Because the s65 is a 4.0L 8 cyl 8200 RPM with room to grow.

I have no basis to be a fanboy of either. I own a n54 e92, owned a e82, i understand how motors work, what extra displacement means, and what the s65 provides vs any motor that isnt a high revving 8 cylinder.

I live in NY and have no desire to drive your car, or anyone else's. I have driven an e92 m3 and even vs my rb or stock turbo n54, it may not offer the same daily driver fun and tq that the s65 provides.... but despite being faster its FAR from the superior s65.

A motor turbo making more power stock or with a tune doesn't make it a superior motor. I am stating s65 (the engine) is superior to the S55. The materials used, its potential, the design, the engineering, and the noise it creates is always going to be superior to the s55.

That doesn't mean the m4 isnt a better car for you or most others, but the motor is inferior.

Let me ask you this, is the S85 inferior to the S63tU ? The s62tu makes more power but it will also be inferior to the s85.

There is only one person reacting like a fan boy. Please convince me the s55 is superior, what makes it better? What qualities does it have that show true M engineering brilliance?

The s65 is a superior motor. The overall car is not superior to the m4 but the motor is now and will always be inferior because you cant change whats done and you cant change science.

You are talking about the CARS i am talking about the MOTORS

and how are you telling me what that car can handle? you are doubting my statements while claiming outrageous things far more fiction than anything i said. The S65 will always be capable of more power due to physics.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by ChuckD05

Because the s65 is a 4.0L 8 cyl 8200 RPM with room to grow.

I have no basis to be a fanboy of either. I own a n54 e92, owned a e82, i understand how motors work, what extra displacement means, and what the s65 provides vs any motor that isnt a high revving 8 cylinder.

I live in NY and have no desire to drive your car, or anyone else's. I have driven an e92 m3 and even vs my rb or stock turbo n54, it may not offer the same daily driver fun and tq that the s65 provides.... but despite being faster its FAR from the superior s65.

A motor turbo making more power stock or with a tune doesn't make it a superior motor. I am stating s65 (the engine) is superior to the S55. The materials used, its potential, the design, the engineering, and the noise it creates is always going to be superior to the s55.

That doesn't mean the m4 isnt a better car for you or most others, but the motor is inferior.

Let me ask you this, is the S85 inferior to the S63tU ? The s62tu makes more power but it will also be inferior to the s85.

There is only one person reacting like a fan boy. Please convince me the s55 is superior, what makes it better? What qualities does it have that show true M engineering brilliance?

The s65 is a superior motor. The overall car is not superior to the m4 but the motor is now and will always be inferior because you cant change whats done and you cant change science.

You are talking about the CARS i am talking about the MOTORS

and how are you telling me what that car can handle? you are doubting my statements while claiming outrageous things far more fiction than anything i said. The S65 will always be capable of more power due to physics.

Simmer down. Which motor is "superior" depends entirely on your values. The S65 delivers the intangible things that you want. The S55 delivers more power at every RPM in the range. You can't sit there and claim that one is "superior" in any objective sense, because you haven't defined what "objective" measure you're using.

[e92proper]

The sound.....the skills!!! This is why I don't even look at the m3/4. E92 v8 ftw!!!

[ManAndMachine]

You were killing it out there man,thank for the vid!! the gts sounds incredible,new m4 what??? I can't hear ya

[ManAndMachine]

The S65 is superior to me because it was designed and built by the same bmw engineers that worked on the bmw F1 engines and it was built in the same facility as the F1 engines.The F1 technical knowhow and technology is in the DNA of the S65,which translates to character and emotion to the driver,unlike any car I have driven other than the 997GT3!

[izzyM2]

OP Owns!