05-02-2019, 03:32 PM | #45 | ||||
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The M550i badge is obviously to parallel the Audi S6 to get more people to pay for a bigger engine. IMO the new M240i etc tier is pretty tempting for what you get. Just new springs and a flash and you've got a hell of a car. But then M3, M3 competition, M3 CS, M3 CSL. My thought was originally the F10 M5 was a bit underwhelming. It gained 200 lbs over the e60 and 50 hp. The turbo V8 sounded muffled and then they piped it in and it sort of damaged the brand. You talk to non-BMW guys and BMW is the 'engine through the speakers brand'. The competition was sort of a course correction/damage control type of thing giving it the power boost it needed and better suspension. Then I think somebody decided the M cars should compete with Porsche and the idea Of the 5 tier M car emerged to rival Porsche's Base-S-GTS thing. Idk. I worry BMW is getting to big and watering down themselves they could end up like Cadillac where they just can't figure it out anymore e |
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05-02-2019, 03:51 PM | #47 |
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No XHP maps for 330i xDrive
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05-02-2019, 04:18 PM | #49 | |
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I like that the DCT/PDK experience isn't so smooth that you can't feel anything - just my personal preference, but the movement away from DCT in the M cars is a bad thing IMO. One of the main reasons I am considering an M2C or M2CS at the end of my F80 lease - I would rather get the DCT-equipped car.
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05-02-2019, 05:02 PM | #50 | |
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It's crazy. M use to be the best BMW could do now its... M###i = body kit and larger engine M# = body kit, larger engine, + HP, + tuned suspension but adaptive so we can still haul the family M# Competition = M# + HP + stiffer suspension but still thinking about the family M# CS = stripped down/lightened up M# Competition? M# CSL = M# CS - rear seats + roll bar? |
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05-02-2019, 05:33 PM | #51 |
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I can't stand these slushbox comparisons to dual clutch boxes. I've worked for BMW & Porsche for almost the last two decades, and my 10th BMW arrives in June. Not tooting my own horn here, just conveying my professional and personal experience for perspective.
No torque converter box is anywhere close to matching a dual clutch box when it comes to shift times and rev matching. I haven't driven a new M5 yet, but I don't need to. All those "journalists" saying you won't miss the DCT in the M5 are off their rockers. Drove a new X5M recently, great car, trans is still lacking from a performance standpoint, but acceptable for a performance SAV/SUV. DCT boxes have come a very long way, as has PDK boxes. PDK boxes have virtually eliminated any of the old herky-jerky in city driving. DCT still needs some improvements in this area, but it's hardly as bad as any of the old SMG's or early dual clutch boxes. I drive PDK Panamera's, 911's, & 718's every day in traffic. They are every bit as comfortable and smooth as the ZF 8 speed is in our 2019 330i xDrive touring with the sport automatic. PDK upshifts are faster AND smoother than the ZF 8 speed, and the downshifts are waaaay faster and smoother. I can't even say that the ZF is better just rolling down the highway. Side note, the great ratios between 5th-6th in the ZF are just too far apart. I realize 6-8 are overdrive gears, but the gap is too much b/t 5-6. It annoys the hell out of me. Long story short, if some executive feels a current dual clutch box is too harsh, they bought the wrong car. That's why the 550 exists.
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05-02-2019, 06:58 PM | #52 |
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ZF8 in my G30 is very good, no other real experience to compare so hard to say otherwise
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05-02-2019, 07:08 PM | #53 |
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I enjoy the 8HP in the X3. Best auto trans I have experienced. Better than the Aisin 8 speed in my Touareg and better than the 7G-Tronic in my Benz.
I disagree that BMW should make transmissions in house like Mercedes. The examples above are a reason for this view. The 9G-Tronic is the latest from Benz, and it is OK, but not class leading. At the moment my feeling is that the 8HP in the X3 is a better solution than the 9G-Tronic in the M-B GLC. |
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05-02-2019, 07:31 PM | #54 |
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So the 8HP50 variant only handles 500 Nm Max? That's only 370ft-lb! The E90 6HP26 was rated for 600Nm! Well that's some bs if you ask me...
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05-02-2019, 07:50 PM | #55 | ||
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The BMW SMG I/BMWSMG II/Audi R Tronic/Lamborghini e gear etc. transmissions all have shift times in the 150-300ms range and are basically dead because they're painfully jerky and slower than dual clutches, although they perhaps enjoyed a heyday in the late 1990s-2007 period before DSG/DCT came around. The Lamborghini Aventador is probably the last production car to have one, after the smart fortwo finally got a dual clutch. Although jerky shifts feel more "real", it doesn't necessarily mean faster performance. I drive three pedal manual but would not put the ZF 8 into the "soulless mass produced commuter transmission", simply because the shift speeds are so good, even if it is super smooth. Then again, I contrast with ancient 3/4 speed autos and how 1-second long downshift reaction times would be sold as "tiptronic". I agree with chassis on the "in house not always better" - mainly based on Mercedes experiences as well, although with the 2-year-older 7G-Tronic, which was significantly slower and jerkier than I hoped for such a modern car. Also, Porsche somehow managed to acquire a 5G-Tronic on the 911 for a while, so BMW could license out one of the exotic transmissions if they really wanted. You can watch videos of the smart fortwo 0-60 single-clutch automated manual, it's comical how long the shifts are. If there's one single transmission that killed the stick shift, it is indeed the ZF8. You now need to sacrifice 2-3MPG's and 0.2s usually in the 0-60. One anomaly I've found is, if the 7DCTs are so good, why do they still get 1 MPG worse than the 6MT on the EPA tests? M2 DCT is worse MPG, M4 DCT is worse MPG, so weird. Quote:
BMW only makes about ~$5k profit per vehicle, Porsche makes $15K and has all of VW AG to share tech with, so there is less wiggle for BMW. Even so, the vast majority of Porsche profit is purely due to the badge and selling boatloads of Cayennes and Macans. I'm not sure what the exact R&D cost of a new DCT would be, but the volume of DCT usage is surprisingly quite low for BMW. Making it work everywhere is not even that worth it to Audi with all their parts sharing sometimes, as they stick the S5 and RS5 with the ZF 8 as well since it accelerates just as nicely and they didn't have any R Tronic/DCT that fit the torque requirements, and works in the monstrously powerful Hellcats too. I wonder if there's a fundamental mechanical trade off in that a torque converter is a force multiplier while a clutch is fundamentally a torque divider, that gives torque-converter autos an advantage on takeoff or in shifts. I'm also still a little surprised that it's so hard to just program a DCT to be ultra-smooth (can't you just rev match perfectly? There is already some DBW delay anyway), but what do you know. Last edited by EstorilM240; 05-02-2019 at 08:00 PM.. |
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05-02-2019, 08:37 PM | #56 | |
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I love the M-DCT in the F8x. It is something I don't think BMW should just abandon and let go. There isn't anything else like it. Haven driven the new F90 M5. There isn't anything wrong with the ZF8 in that car since BMW M tweak it. I love the up shifts but there is still something missing when I drove it, I miss the feel of the M-DCT in my M3.
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05-02-2019, 08:56 PM | #57 |
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Yet somehow this ZF8 tranny shares DNA with the ZF9 speed in the Chrysler/Jeep which SUCKS beyond measure even after a couple of reprogramming versions. It didn't know which gear to hold or when to upshift or downshift. It's a wonder why FCA didn't change over to this.
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05-02-2019, 09:04 PM | #58 | |
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05-02-2019, 11:20 PM | #59 | |
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The reason I got my M6 was that it had a V8 and a dual clutch. This was important to me and out weighed every other positive that other manufacturers could bring to the table. I have driven the F90 a bit and while the gearbox is good, I feel like it is now just an Audi RS4/5/6/7 with a BMW logo.
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05-02-2019, 11:31 PM | #60 | |
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05-03-2019, 06:16 AM | #61 |
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DCT weighs 55lbs more than the 6MT.
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05-03-2019, 08:53 AM | #63 |
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The new m4/m3's will have the ZF8 like the F90 m5's ? I would think so 5 ers 600 hp m3/4 500
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05-03-2019, 11:26 AM | #64 |
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55lbs is a lot. That's were your 1mpg increase/decrease comes from
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05-03-2019, 12:17 PM | #65 | |
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I think there's something else that is inefficient about the DCT vs. the ZF. Maybe the DCT's more aggressive shift programming or lack of a super tall 8th gear hurts it. I have driven a DCT M2, but not long enough and not in normal enough traffic to intuitively learn the programming. To check this theory, I did the math for cruising RPM at 60MPH: ~1825rpm on the DCT for the M2 and 2300rpm on the 6MT (they have the same final drive ratio, but 6th gear on the manual is 0.85 and 7th on the DCT is 0.67). Very odd to me how cruising at 26% lower revs does not make up for the 55lb difference. If you think cruising at the higher revs is more efficient for the M engines, then the DCT should just downshift to 6th. For the M240i, the cruising RPM at 60MPH is ~2130rpm (6MT) or 1475rpm (8AT), a 44% rev difference, which is good for a 10% highway MPG boost. Last edited by EstorilM240; 05-03-2019 at 12:30 PM.. |
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05-03-2019, 12:53 PM | #66 |
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I love the LCI ZF8 in my F31 but I definitely prefer the PDK in a 2017 Macan Turbo I drive every now and then.
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