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      02-09-2014, 08:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So I never really paid much attention to the i8 until the commercial showed up and my Wife asked "What's that; is it designed to compete with the new Corvette?" I new the i8 was expensive, and supposed to be fast, and it had some type of super high mileage hybrid drivetrain. So I checked out the i8, and I just really don't get the point of it. It costs $136,000 in the U.S. and apparently gets 94 eMPG? I look at the new C7, which you can get for $56K in Z1 guise and have a car that is far faster than an i8, far less failure prone, and I'd dare say far better handling (we'll have to wait and see I guess). From what I've seen of the i8 it has useless backseats, and hardly any cargo space (maybe the back seats). It is about the same size of the C7 and almost the same weight. The $80K price difference buys about 450,000 miles worth of gasoline for the 'Vette. So I just don't get the point.
The i8 is not meant to compete with the Corvette. They're completely different cars for completely different buyers.

Performance per dollar is a single metric. For some people, it's the most important metric. For other people, there are other factors that are more important. The Corvette has been outperforming cars at twice the price for a long time, yet people still buy Porsches and Ferraris all the time.

The point of the i8 is to build a performance car that gets 94 MPG. Obviously it's not a matter of economy (money saving), but instead, a matter of making a point. Consuming less fuel, but still having a car that is great fun to drive. That's the point of the i8, and there are people with checkbooks and the motivation to buy them.
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      02-09-2014, 09:23 PM   #24
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FWIW, the entire 2014 production capacity has been sold out. Some people see it as something worth buying.
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      02-10-2014, 04:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
The i8 is not meant to compete with the Corvette. They're completely different cars for completely different buyers.

Performance per dollar is a single metric. For some people, it's the most important metric. For other people, there are other factors that are more important. The Corvette has been outperforming cars at twice the price for a long time, yet people still buy Porsches and Ferraris all the time.

The point of the i8 is to build a performance car that gets 94 MPG. Obviously it's not a matter of economy (money saving), but instead, a matter of making a point. Consuming less fuel, but still having a car that is great fun to drive. That's the point of the i8, and there are people with checkbooks and the motivation to buy them.
So behind all the BMW hype, I'd like to see if the 94 eMPG is achievable just in pure eco mode and for 22 miles until the battery runs out, or is a real average MPG driving the car at its high performance levels. I still don't get the point.
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      02-10-2014, 08:20 AM   #26
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So behind all the BMW hype, I'd like to see if the 94 eMPG is achievable just in pure eco mode and for 22 miles until the battery runs out, or is a real average MPG driving the car at its high performance levels. I still don't get the point.
I suppose it's entirely possible that some people will never get the point, but I think maybe this illustration will help a bit.

Think of the balance between high-efficiency and high-performance. Most people treat this as a zero sum game: if you add efficiency, you must take away performance. The i8 is out to disprove that axiom. That is to say, you can have high-efficiency and high-performance. That is the point.

What you've expressed is skepticism. You've said, "I see a lot of hype here, and I'm not sure if BMW can actually deliver." Whether or not that holds true will depend on what your expectations are. If you expect Corvette level performance, then BMW will have failed.

It is BMW's job to manage consumers' expectations through their marketing of the product. So far, the advertising hasn't focused too much on the performance aspect, so I think that's a smart move. I'm not sure they're doing enough to explain "the point" of the car though. They're only building excitement. That's a tough balance when it comes to advertising, because ads that "educate" are usually poorly received. Humans respond most reliably to emotional impetus, so the advertisements are naturally focused on that approach. Confusing some consumers is an acceptable if it gets more people in to dealerships. That's one of the ugly warts of advertising.

Let's get this out there: I don't think the i8 is going to deliver Corvette, Ferrari, or Porsche level performance. However -- and I'm repeating myself a bit here --I don't think that's the point.

Back to the zero sum notion. If we think of a Ferrari 458 as 95% performance and 5% efficiency (hey, it's got decent CO₂ emissions!), you get 100% total performance. With the i8, BMW is trying to achieve 70% performance and 70% efficiency for a total of 140% performance.

I think your skepticism is warranted. BMW hasn't proven this idea that they we can have our cake and eat it too. With the exception of the new Porsche 918, no manufacturer has delivered on this promise yet. Many of them are trying though. We're seeing more focus on efficiency, even in ultra-high-performance cars.

Skepticism is important. It keeps BMW honest and will push them to deliver a better product. I'd encourage skepticism, but I hope you won't miss the point. It's difficult to be an effective skeptic if you don't understand the idea you're evaluating.
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      02-11-2014, 06:32 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I suppose it's entirely possible that some people will never get the point, but I think maybe this illustration will help a bit.

Think of the balance between high-efficiency and high-performance. Most people treat this as a zero sum game: if you add efficiency, you must take away performance. The i8 is out to disprove that axiom. That is to say, you can have high-efficiency and high-performance. That is the point.

What you've expressed is skepticism. You've said, "I see a lot of hype here, and I'm not sure if BMW can actually deliver." Whether or not that holds true will depend on what your expectations are. If you expect Corvette level performance, then BMW will have failed.

It is BMW's job to manage consumers' expectations through their marketing of the product. So far, the advertising hasn't focused too much on the performance aspect, so I think that's a smart move. I'm not sure they're doing enough to explain "the point" of the car though. They're only building excitement. That's a tough balance when it comes to advertising, because ads that "educate" are usually poorly received. Humans respond most reliably to emotional impetus, so the advertisements are naturally focused on that approach. Confusing some consumers is an acceptable if it gets more people in to dealerships. That's one of the ugly warts of advertising.

Let's get this out there: I don't think the i8 is going to deliver Corvette, Ferrari, or Porsche level performance. However -- and I'm repeating myself a bit here --I don't think that's the point.

Back to the zero sum notion. If we think of a Ferrari 458 as 95% performance and 5% efficiency (hey, it's got decent CO₂ emissions!), you get 100% total performance. With the i8, BMW is trying to achieve 70% performance and 70% efficiency for a total of 140% performance.

I think your skepticism is warranted. BMW hasn't proven this idea that they we can have our cake and eat it too. With the exception of the new Porsche 918, no manufacturer has delivered on this promise yet. Many of them are trying though. We're seeing more focus on efficiency, even in ultra-high-performance cars.

Skepticism is important. It keeps BMW honest and will push them to deliver a better product. I'd encourage skepticism, but I hope you won't miss the point. It's difficult to be an effective skeptic if you don't understand the idea you're evaluating.
I think I do understand the idea I am evaluating. From BMW's press release posted in the i3/i8 Forum:

•First combination of BMW TwinPower Turbo and BMW eDrive technology plus intelligent energy management produce system output of 266 kW/362 hp (max. torque: 570 Nm / 420 lb-ft) and give the BMW i8 the performance characteristics of a pure-bred sports car (0 – 100 km/h / 62 mph in 4.4 seconds) combined with fuel economy and emissions comparable to a small car - EU fuel consumption: 2.5 litres per 100 km / 94 mpg (US); “glued-to-the-road” AWD driving experience with torque distribution geared towards optimized dynamics.

•Driving Experience Control switch and eDrive button allow driver to choose from five driving modes; range of up to 35 kilometers (22 miles) on electric power alone and a top speed of 120 km/h (75 mph); COMFORT mode offers optimum balance between dynamics and efficiency; combined range in everyday conditions: over 500 kilometers (310 miles); SPORT mode with ultra-intense boost function provided by the electric motor; ECO PRO mode can be used in both all-electric mode and hybrid mode.

•Sophisticated chassis technology featuring a double-wishbone front axle and a five-link rear axle; Electric Power Steering; Dynamic Damper Control comes as standard; 20-inch light-alloy wheels are standard.

•Emotion-led visual impression based around established BMW i design language; classical sports car proportions and fresh interpretation of BMW design features; doors open upwards like wings; clean lines, plus surface design (external and internal) based on the layering principle; full-LED headlights as standard, innovative laser headlights – unique worldwide – available as an option where regulations allow.

All these words tell me the i8 is targeted as a high-performance sports car, which the Corvette is too, and has many of the same features: dynamic damper control, sports-oriented suspension design, five (5) driving modes, use of aluminum and carbon fiber in construction (yeah I get it, the i8 has a carbon fiber passenger cell).

The all-new C7 Corvette gets the job done (with better performance) and at a substantially far less price. It's admirable BMW is advancing the art, but sometimes the direction is not the right track. If BMW came out with a turbo 3-cylinder ceramic-engine with 300HP and 350 ft.lb. torque and ran at 95% efficiency (i.e. 5% heat loss), that would be impressive, even at $136,000.

Let's call the i8 what it is, an engineering exercise, put into limited production. I remember when BMW introduced the limited-production Z1 (about 6 years after GM put the Fiero into production) and touted it as the next age in car design and manufacturing (space-frame covered by plastic panels). BMW built a few hundred copies of the Z1. GM built tens of thousands of price-competitive Fieros, built other vehicle designs using the technology, and even started a new car company (Saturn) based of the space-frame/plastic body construction technique. Automobile Magazine just claimed the i8 has the design of the year and what regular cars will be like (regardless of price) in 2064; let's hope it holds true.

All the i8 does is trade the cost of fuel for the cost of technology, and to me doesn't do that good of a job at it. The Tesla Model S does do a great job at trading the cost of fuel for the cost of technology. The Tesla S is very close to providing the same over all cost of ownership for an EV as compared to a ICE-powered automobile in it's price and size class (how the price is subsidized is a matter of conjecture, but they are selling quite well and the consumer understands the purpose of it).
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      02-11-2014, 07:05 AM   #28
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^^^the go buy a Corvette. I hear GM is offering a free toupee for the first 100 buyers.
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      02-11-2014, 07:30 AM   #29
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^^^the go buy a Corvette. I hear GM is offering a free toupee for the first 100 buyers.
Okay, it's been under consideration for a few months already. But, you heard wrong, the free toupee was for the first 100 Z8 buyers who returned their car with cracked aluminum strut towers a few years back. LOL

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      02-11-2014, 08:28 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So I never really paid much attention to the i8 until the commercial showed up and my Wife asked "What's that; is it designed to compete with the new Corvette?" I new the i8 was expensive, and supposed to be fast, and it had some type of super high mileage hybrid drivetrain. So I checked out the i8, and I just really don't get the point of it. It costs $136,000 in the U.S. and apparently gets 94 eMPG? I look at the new C7, which you can get for $56K in Z1 guise and have a car that is far faster than an i8, far less failure prone, and I'd dare say far better handling (we'll have to wait and see I guess). From what I've seen of the i8 it has useless backseats, and hardly any cargo space (maybe the back seats). It is about the same size of the C7 and almost the same weight. The $80K price difference buys about 450,000 miles worth of gasoline for the 'Vette. So I just don't get the point.
The i8 serves to sort of define hybrid/sporting cars for the next decade. Other cars do the same thing, the 918, LaFerrari and McLaren P1, but the i8 is more attainable and it's practices of low weight and what not will trickle down to the rest of the BMW line up.

I find this car lines up more with a Tesla than it does a Corvette, you are looking for the wrong benchmarks.
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      02-11-2014, 08:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
All these words tell me the i8 is targeted as a high-performance sports car, which the Corvette is too, and has many of the same features: dynamic damper control, sports-oriented suspension design, five (5) driving modes, use of aluminum and carbon fiber in construction (yeah I get it, the i8 has a carbon fiber passenger cell).

The all-new C7 Corvette gets the job done (with better performance) and at a substantially far less price. It's admirable BMW is advancing the art, but sometimes the direction is not the right track. If BMW came out with a turbo 3-cylinder ceramic-engine with 300HP and 350 ft.lb. torque and ran at 95% efficiency (i.e. 5% heat loss), that would be impressive, even at $136,000
The term "sports car" is a very, very broad term. Is the M3 a sports car? Because the i8 will have M3 levels of performance. The Mazda Miata is considered a sports car, and it doesn't have anywhere near the level of performance the i8 will have. Is it ok for BMW to call it a sports car now?

Not once has BMW has compared the i8 to the Corvette. They wouldn't, because the Corvette includes zero advanced eco-related technology, and is in an entirely different league from a performance standpoint.

It's a daft comparison, and you're not proving anything by continuing to harp on it. The Corvette's performance is in super-car territory. It is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the i8's target performance.

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The all-new C7 Corvette gets the job done (with better performance) and at a substantially far less price.
The C7 Corvette outperforms a very long list of cars at a much, much lower price point. The car is a modern wonder of engineering and a value that has never been seen in automotive history. I cannot think of a single example of a car that outperforms the C7 (or C6 Z06 and ZR1, for that matter) on a performance-per-dollar standpoint. However, this has nothing to do with the i8.

If you are looking for performance-per-dollar, then you shouldn't even consider the i8. Go ahead and toss all your brochures in the trash. Delete any bookmarks from your web browser. Unsubscribe from this thread. Go outside, have a breath of fresh air, and forget you ever saw the car.

You should probably also consider that your wife's first-impiressions from a single commercial might not be the best basis from which to start the reasoning for your next car purchase.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Let's call the i8 what it is, an engineering exercise, put into limited production.
Absolutely true. That's the point of the entire i line-up. I'm not sure I expect i to even be around in 15 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I remember when BMW introduced the limited-production Z1 (about 6 years after GM put the Fiero into production) and touted it as the next age in car design and manufacturing (space-frame covered by plastic panels). BMW built a few hundred copies of the Z1. GM built tens of thousands of price-competitive Fieros, built other vehicle designs using the technology, and even started a new car company (Saturn) based of the space-frame/plastic body construction technique. Automobile Magazine just claimed the i8 has the design of the year and what regular cars will be like (regardless of price) in 2064; let's hope it holds true.

All the i8 does is trade the cost of fuel for the cost of technology, and to me doesn't do that good of a job at it. The Tesla Model S does do a great job at trading the cost of fuel for the cost of technology. The Tesla S is very close to providing the same over all cost of ownership for an EV as compared to a ICE-powered automobile in it's price and size class (how the price is subsidized is a matter of conjecture, but they are selling quite well and the consumer understands the purpose of it).
Now these are good arguments!

BMW is claiming to push the envelope, but as you pointed out, Tesla is kicking everyone's ass. By including an ICE, BMW is making a different bet. I've often wondered the same thing about the i8: "Does the inclusion of an ICE even make sense?" I have a feeling we're in agreement that the inclusion of an ICE is a misstep here. I think Tesla have it right. If you're going electric, go electric. Although, the Porsche 918 is an excellent demonstration of the benefits of a supplementary ICE can provide at the very top end. Maybe BMW followed Porshe's lead here? Seems plausible considering their market position.

For me, the most exciting thing to come out of the i program is the CFRP technology. Rumors are that the an all-new Z-car will use a carbon fiber tub chassis. I'm sure that rumor is based on a whole lot of unproven hypotheses, but if it comes to fruition, the i program will have been more beneficial to BMW's core mission than the Z1 was. Similar rumors are circulating regarding the M2, although that car won't use a CF tub, just lots of CFRP. Reportedly, more than the M3/4 even.
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      02-12-2014, 05:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
The term "sports car" is a very, very broad term. Is the M3 a sports car? Because the i8 will have M3 levels of performance. The Mazda Miata is considered a sports car, and it doesn't have anywhere near the level of performance the i8 will have. Is it ok for BMW to call it a sports car now?

I think the definition is not as broad as you make it out to be; I think it is quite narrow, but with a broad spectrum of performance levels. BMW calls it a sports car, I already pointed that out.


Not once has BMW has compared the i8 to the Corvette. They wouldn't, because the Corvette includes zero advanced eco-related technology, and is in an entirely different league from a performance standpoint.

BMW hasn't compared it to anything because in their typical hype mode "they are breaking new ground" (Just like the Z1 vs. the Fiero). So the i8 doesn't match the C7's performance levels so we'll just punt then and say, "well the i8 really isn't a sports car." Sorry but that's a lame reason; it just sounds like excuses to me.


It's a daft comparison, and you're not proving anything by continuing to harp on it. The Corvette's performance is in super-car territory. It is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the i8's target performance.

I'd say a Prius is at the opposite end of the i8's target performance.


So the Vette is a great performance car, we all agree on that. It's really great considering the price. The i8 is dressed up as a sports car when it's actually a "Halo-Tech Car". If BMW didn't try to pass it off as a sports car then we'd not be having the discussion.


The C7 Corvette outperforms a very long list of cars at a much, much lower price point. The car is a modern wonder of engineering and a value that has never been seen in automotive history. I cannot think of a single example of a car that outperforms the C7 (or C6 Z06 and ZR1, for that matter) on a performance-per-dollar standpoint. However, this has nothing to do with the i8.

If you are looking for performance-per-dollar, then you shouldn't even consider the i8. Go ahead and toss all your brochures in the trash. Delete any bookmarks from your web browser. Unsubscribe from this thread. Go outside, have a breath of fresh air, and forget you ever saw the car.

A little dramatic... My argument is not performance per dollar; we both agree the C7 has that won hands down regardless of most sports cars placed in view of it. What I am saying is the i8 is a neat idea, but it really doesn't deliver on the purposeful tech use front. Yup, it's got great application of existing technology. And the specific HP/liter is pretty dang good (around 160), but it's really expensive to the point it obfuscates the purpose of it's existence - hybrid fuel mileage. As others on this thread have stated, people who can afford a $136K car probably have no financial concerns regarding fuel costs.

You should probably also consider that your wife's first-impiressions from a single commercial might not be the best basis from which to start the reasoning for your next car purchase.
It wasn't. We've already discussed the purchase of a C7 months ago. She'd love nothing more than me to get another BMW with the performance of the C7. She's the one who drives a 160,000 mile 1997 Z3. I'm sure her thought was when seeing the i8 commercial, "Wow, cool car, maybe I can talk the knucklehead over there to buy another BMW instead of that low-life, redneck, new Corvette."


Absolutely true. That's the point of the entire i line-up. I'm not sure I expect i to even be around in 15 years.



Now these are good arguments!

BMW is claiming to push the envelope, but as you pointed out, Tesla is kicking everyone's ass. By including an ICE, BMW is making a different bet. I've often wondered the same thing about the i8: "Does the inclusion of an ICE even make sense?" I have a feeling we're in agreement that the inclusion of an ICE is a misstep here. I think Tesla have it right. If you're going electric, go electric. Although, the Porsche 918 is an excellent demonstration of the benefits of a supplementary ICE can provide at the very top end. Maybe BMW followed Porshe's lead here? Seems plausible considering their market position.

For me, the most exciting thing to come out of the i program is the CFRP technology. Rumors are that the an all-new Z-car will use a carbon fiber tub chassis. I'm sure that rumor is based on a whole lot of unproven hypotheses, but if it comes to fruition, the i program will have been more beneficial to BMW's core mission than the Z1 was. Similar rumors are circulating regarding the M2, although that car won't use a CF tub, just lots of CFRP. Reportedly, more than the M3/4 even.
My last reply is, if the real exciting thing about the i8 is the CFRP technology, why the need for some halo-tech car to introduce it then? Why not just introduce the high-rate production use of CFRP in the 3-series (instead of the i3), BMW's highest selling model and amortize the development costs of bringing mass-production CFRP over a larger volume of cars. Regardless of the drivetrain technology, CFRP in the plain ole 3er would have been just as accepted in the market place; probably more so since the 3-series is the sports sedan benchmark already.

Good discussion.
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