Civic Type R/Integra Type S

[bugg]

My throttle actuators just went out again (replaced 2021) and with my car parked up in limp mode while waiting for parts, I've been wondering if I should just get something less... fragile.

Tedward (on Youtube) went through the same thought process and traded his E92 for a CTR. Granted, the markup on the CTR/ITS is insane right now, but I'd like to have the peace of mind of being able to road trip my car in the summer without worrying about packing tools and replacement throttle actuators.

For those who have driven both the E9X M3 and CTR/ITS, how do they compare? I almost got an FK8 CTR 2 years ago, but figured I should get a large-displacement NA V8 while I still can.

In terms of practicality the civic likely wins out, with the hatch. Also I'm 6'3 and nobody with legs can fit behind me in the E90. But how's the drive? I love the balance of the E9X platform - small enough to feel agile and adjustable (especially with monoball thrust arms), but not too porky. A near one-off engine and great feedback throughout.

There's another thread on here about this but it was filled with fanboys parroting "bUt itS a HoNDa!" Badges and luxury are pretty low on my list, down at the bottom with the G80 grill

[Luvs2spwg]

I just sold my E92 M3 about a month ago and ended up buying a 2023 CTR. Once I had a kid, the M3 just sat. I thought about trading it in for the ease of dealer experience but knew I'd be getting screwed on value so I went through the hassle of selling it privately...OMG the amount of DMs and tire kickers was ridiculous, luckily the right person came along and we made a good deal for both sides.

I had my heart set on a 4 door M3 either an E90 or F80 just for practicality purposes, but (again) with a kid, I was no longer really in the mood for how delicate an M car could be, warming it up 5 minutes, etc. Test drove a M340i, blah, randomly did a google search and a CTR literally showed up at the dealer that same day while I was already out. Went with the wife, baby and car seat and took it for a drive and was hooked. Paid a little over MSRP but they threw in some free extras, wheel and tire package, etc since I was an existing customer, so not bad.

Pros of the CTR - best manual ever, seriously. The M3 stick is garbage in comparison. Seating and practicality hands down are better, hatch is huge. I don't need a ton of tech so I like the simple infotainment of the CTR. I actually prefer revving out a smaller displacement engine, the M3 would only get me arrested ripping through gears like I can on the CTR.

Cons of the CTR - it'll never be a RWD V8 that revs to 8200 - nothing is!

[backman_66]

Look up Engineering Explained's Youtube review of the ITS.

[Z K]

I can't do the Civic Type R and the Integra Type S, my M3 is streetable but nowadays I mostly track it on weekends.

The Civic and Integra both have overheating issues and goes into limp mode on track. They're not designed for track driving and pretty delicate if you decide to track it. It's been an issue since the FK8 and it continues to be a problem in this current generation. Honda never figured out how to fix it or they just don't care.

But if you don't track, you won't see these issues so for 99% of the buyers, they are fine on the street.

[panda-R]

Originally Posted by Luvs2spwg

Pros of the CTR - best manual ever, seriously. The M3 stick is garbage in comparison.

Not true, the best manual is the S2000 and even the older DC2R transmission is better than the new FK8/FL5.

If you like the E9x M3, put in an Autosolutions SSK. It'll stop anyone from complaining about shitty shifters in a BMW.

[importraceram]

Anyone else have any insight on this? I would be lying if I said that I haven't been considering the same. Although, with the FL5's going over msrp, I would likely be looking at an FK8 which is extremely boy racer looking (to me anyways), so who knows... As the OP mentioned, I would be very worried about losing the s65 noise/character and could potentially have immediate buyers remorse...

[panda-R]

Originally Posted by importraceram

Anyone else have any insight on this? I would be lying if I said that I haven't been considering the same. Although, with the FL5's going over msrp, I would likely be looking at an FK8 which is extremely boy racer looking (to me anyways), so who knows... As the OP mentioned, I would be very worried about losing the s65 noise/character and could potentially have immediate buyers remorse...

I had a FK8 before i came back to the E90 M3. It really depends what you're looking for....

both have 4 doors
FK8 is faster stock track car. E9X is more fun on the street
FK8 sounds like a pig, E9X sounds glorious
FK8 has a great stock transmission feel, E9X is great with Autosolutions SSK
FK8 is cheap to maintain, E9X oil changes already make me cringe.

On that note, the FK8 has got compliments from Soccer Moms, Kids/Teenagers, Grandmas. My E9X gets compliments from other douchebags.

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by panda-R

I had a FK8 before i came back to the E90 M3. It really depends what you're looking for....

both have 4 doors
FK8 is faster stock track car. E9X is more fun on the street
FK8 sounds like a pig, E9X sounds glorious
FK8 has a great stock transmission feel, E9X is great with Autosolutions SSK
FK8 is cheap to maintain, E9X oil changes already make me cringe.

On that note, the FK8 has got compliments from Soccer Moms, Kids/Teenagers, Grandmas. My E9X gets compliments from other douchebags.

From "other douchebags". Does that mean you are calling yourself one too?

[panda-R]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

From "other douchebags". Does that mean you are calling yourself one too?

Do non douchebags drive BMWs with no cats?

[Soden82]

Originally Posted by panda-R

Do non douchebags drive BMWs with no cats?

Guilty as charged 😉

[importraceram]

Originally Posted by panda-R

I had a FK8 before i came back to the E90 M3. It really depends what you're looking for....

both have 4 doors
FK8 is faster stock track car. E9X is more fun on the street
FK8 sounds like a pig, E9X sounds glorious
FK8 has a great stock transmission feel, E9X is great with Autosolutions SSK
FK8 is cheap to maintain, E9X oil changes already make me cringe.

On that note, the FK8 has got compliments from Soccer Moms, Kids/Teenagers, Grandmas. My E9X gets compliments from other douchebags.

Great feedback here, I appreciate it! It appears that, from a performance standpoint, the FK8 isn't all that far behind the FL5 but rather the FL5 is more refined and less boy-racer (a major benefit in my opinion). As I previously mentioned, at over MSRP it's hard to justify the FL5 even damn near a year since its release. FK8 seems like a better value granted they are still selling very close to their original MSRP (high 30's) with tens of thousands of miles.

Not to change the subject but if we are talking FL5 money (50'ish) you could put a pretty clean f80 on the table for discussion...which should be objectively better in every sense granted the German out of warranty reliability concern is still present.

[STooK]

Dang, I never thought I'd say this but in my late 30's I just can't do a CTR/ITR. I really like how they look but I briefly drove the last gen and the only thing I remember is that it was super stiff. But something about new cars these days just doesn't feel right...they're all so good now that it's bad. They have gas engines but feel like an electric car with the computer controlling everything. Simply put, they feel soulless and I'm sure the CTR/ITR is no different. If the m3 is your daily then I feel for you, but I'd much rather live with a still pretty reliable e90 m3 than "insert any new car here".

[importraceram]

I sold my M3 back in Nov and recently took delivery of an FK8 CTR. The car came on the OEM continental summer rubber so need to address that before I can start driving extremely hard given the season. With that being said I definitely do have some early impressions.

Even though not pushing the CTR terribly hard, you get the sense that it’s glued to the road and rides noticeably stiffer than my M3 (H&R springs plus Bilstein shocks). My car wasn’t an EDC car so maybe that’s why it felt “softer” than the CTR (especially in sport and +R mode).

When it comes to sound we all know there’s no question which car has the upper hand there. There’s no doubt that sound is the e9x’s strong suit and it takes something verrrrry special to top the sound.

As far as exterior, the e90 M3 is hard to beat as it offers a mix of muscular yet subtle styling. The fk8 CTR, especially in Rallye Red, is definitely a lot more in your face and loud. I am still warming up to the styling of the fk8. I have already said, many times, “it comes from the factory with that wing”.

Interior comparison is interesting…which the M3 undoubtedly has a much more quality fit and finish I feel as though the CTR interior feels more special even if covered in faux CF and microfiber. I feel like the M3 felt like a normal 3 series inside (even if the seats were slightly more bolstered) whereas the CTR you know you’re in something more special than the base model. The seats are very aggressive but yet reasonably comfortable.

As far as acceleration goes the butt dyno/seat of the pants doesn’t say the CTR is that much slower (it is currently bone stock). However, I know based on magazine trap speeds it’s definitely slower in stock form than a catless tuned e9x. The turbo powerband smacking you in the face combined with its 3117 lbs curb weight make it feel like it still goes pretty well even if just over 300hp out of the box.

I would say it’s definitely too early to say, outright, which I prefer however this change over to Honda was predicated on more than just performance and street credibility (M3 vs civic). I wanted a newer, more reliable, cheaper to operate vehicle that can still act in the capacity of an enthusiast car putting a smile on my face on the back roads.

[414bhp]

Originally Posted by importraceram

I have already said, many times, “it comes from the factory with that wing”.

I know that feeling from my years owning a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution!

[SSJVegita]

I have both a e92 M3 and a 2020 CTR. Not going to lie I love the CTR but the ride is super stiff and unforgiving with those rubberband tires.

Also because of the stiffness the car is starting to accumulate rattles at only 13k, and you hear a lot of road noise.

I actually been thinking of trading it in for something like an is500. If none of those issues scare you off, then go for it.

I will say, I love whipping it around, sometimes even more fun than the e92, but then you hear the 8k v8 screaming and i can go back and forth.

[Lucky1]

Haven’t compared cost difference but if your situation allows it (mine does) I just have an older car as a backup for when my Germans are out of service. So I can keep “needy” cars as daily’s if I want and when they are in service I am not ticked off because I just drive the backup car. I have to find cheap indy’s and take Ubers to manage costs effectively but manages my car being out of service and impacting me anxieties. And the variety on occasion is fun.

Now to caveat my own argument my backup is a 2008 128i 6spd with 160,000+ miles on it most put on by me over 15 years. You’d think a car that you only drive 1,000 miles a year wouldn’t break often but boy would you be wrong. So my situation is great because I have two fun to drive cars but two older BMW’s are not a cheap combination.

Also, gas mileage on these things (E9x M3) are getting to me. Can’t lie. 128 kills it on that. Time for me to make more money (again).

[e46IX]

I wouldn't consider an E9x M3 to be unreliable or expensive to own. The most expensive part of dailying an E9x M3 is the fuel consumption, that would be the only reason not to daily one. Other than that, it's very simple to service and they are pretty solid mechanically as long as you cover your major bases (rod bearings, rebuilt throttle actuators, etc.)

As for shifter comparisons, you can't compare a cable-operated shifter in a Honda to a direct-linkage shifter in a BMW. FWIW I prefer my Autosolutions E92 over any Honda I've driven, even over an S2K shifter.

[importraceram]

Originally Posted by SSJVegita

I have both a e92 M3 and a 2020 CTR. Not going to lie I love the CTR but the ride is super stiff and unforgiving with those rubberband tires.

Also because of the stiffness the car is starting to accumulate rattles at only 13k, and you hear a lot of road noise.

I actually been thinking of trading it in for something like an is500. If none of those issues scare you off, then go for it.

I will say, I love whipping it around, sometimes even more fun than the e92, but then you hear the 8k v8 screaming and i can go back and forth.

The first time that I put the car into +R mode I was blown away at just how stiff the ride was. Hell I would venture to say that my CTR’s comfort mode is similar to my old H&R spring/Bilstein shock M3.

[GinTonic]

Originally Posted by Z K

I can't do the Civic Type R and the Integra Type S, my M3 is streetable but nowadays I mostly track it on weekends.

The Civic and Integra both have overheating issues and goes into limp mode on track. They're not designed for track driving and pretty delicate if you decide to track it. It's been an issue since the FK8 and it continues to be a problem in this current generation. Honda never figured out how to fix it or they just don't care.

But if you don't track, you won't see these issues so for 99% of the buyers, they are fine on the street.

Some of you guys need to learn to read. OP is asking about the car for daily purposes. Where do you see him asking how it fairs on track?

[BloomRunsDubs]

Wouldn't trade my E92 for it but I absolutely love the Integra Type S. It feels like an "adult" version of the CTR. Love the widebody flares and it pulls off the 3 exhaust tips a lot better than the civic imo

Will probably pick up a used one eventually

[14_deltaM3]

I’m very glad they make a CTR. It also scratches the nostalgic itch caused by the original type R.

It’s also an excellent car - matched to its new peers, you’re into m2s, supras, and performance trim Camaros and mustangs for similar performance and focus.

However, at list price, id rather have me a slightly older performance specials from recent generations (330 zhps, older m2s or m3s e46 and e9x, ats V, etc) for the rwd dynamics, smaller sizes and old feel. I wouldn’t fault someone for choosing one, though.

Above MSRP (some dealers are asking more than CAD $75k for new ones), it makes way less sense.

[414bhp]

Originally Posted by SSJVegita

I actually been thinking of trading it in for something like an is500. If none of those issues scare you off, then go for it.

I drove an IS500 this summer, and while it was fun, it didn't have the razor-edged engine response that we love from the M3. Unless maintained the M3 was breaking you, I couldn't see taking an IS500 over it.