Brake Pad Advice

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Saandiaago

Sorry for the thread jack OP. Excellent advice here. I'm thinking of swapping out my OEM brake fluid as recommended by several members, but I am curious as to how often I will need to change the fluid if I use something like Motul 600? I anticipate around 3 track days per year. My car still has scheduled maintenance with BMW, so will there be a compatibility issue when they replace my brake fluid as scheduled or should I just provide the fluid that I want them to use? Thanks.

If you run ATE or Motul, you should bleed every 6 months or every 3-4 track days, whichever comes first, and perform a full flush every year. If you run SRF, you can skip the bleeds and just flush every year because SRF has a much higher wet boiling point than everything else. You may have noticed that SRF is also about 5x more expensive than everything else, but that price gap narrows significantly when you consider the cost of having a shop bleed your brakes (or the effort to do it yourself) if you were to save some cash on ATE/Motul. The bottom line is that if you run more than 3-4 track days per year, it's worth it to go SRF. Less than that and the value proposition isn't quite as strong, but for some people the reduced service hassle alone is worth the extra cost of SRF.

However, note that some HPDE organizers require that you've completely flushed your brake fluid within the last 6 months, and the CotA-specific tech form for The Driver's Edge requires it to have been flushed within the last 3 months. That's technically unnecessary with proper fluid, though I can see why the form says that. They have to err on the side of caution down to the least common denominator vehicle, and that fluid requirement arguably makes sense for people running stock fluid. Same goes for the validity of brake pad thickness requirements for people running enduro race pads vs OEM stuff. Anyway, some tech inspectors will sign off on your fluid even if it's older than the form specifies as long as it's good fluid (same for the thickness of your pads if they're appropriate pads), but if not and you'll therefore be fully flushing your fluid every 6 months anyway, then the value equation shifts back toward ATE/Motul because either one will hold up perfectly well on the track when fairly fresh.

As for Ultimate Service flushes at the dealer, there wouldn't be a compatibility issue because there's nothing wrong with switching fluids, but the OEM stuff won't hold up as well on track, so just bring the fluid you want them to use. You'll still see the OEM fluid listed on your work order because they have to write that up in order to get reimbursed by BMW for their work, but they shouldn't have a problem using your stuff. I've done that a couple times now. If your dealer makes a fuss about it, just refuse the service and pay someone else to flush with the fluid you want. There's no point in having the dealer add OEM fluid only to have someone else replace it immediately afterward.

[bigjae1976]

I'd just get some high temp track pads. Good brakes are not a learning impediment like sticky tires. You want the brakes to be consistent and it just invites bad mistakes when you have a novice trying to manage stock pads. There are tons of advanced students that can't manage their brakes. You don't learn much when you are wondering if you can slow down the car in a braking zone.

If you must use OEM pads...put brand new OEM pads on.

[FormulaMMM]

Put it this way, you won't regret putting some race pads on the front at least. The OEM pads are likely going to be a limitation and a liability if you want to push it at all, or even maintain a decent pace throughout an entire session.

In the past I ran with oem, hybrid street/track and in addition to inconsistent performance, I always ended up with pad deposits. You can't focus and learn when the steering wheel is jumping out of your hands. And no, often times those don't go away with the same pads that caused the deposits. If you end up with deposits, you'll need race pads, which work to scrub the rotors (or a brake lathe to cut the rotors, and you don't want to go that route).

I think you're more likely to compromise your warranty/maintenance running with the stock pads than you are swapping out for the track, then putting the oe back on. If you go in with a brake shudder issue service might question how you ended up with "warped" rotors.

[bigjae1976]

BMW will not warranty issues caused by excessive heat. So if the tech knows anything, he'll figure out your "warped rotors" was caused by overheated OE pads. Most techs can't imagine that anyone can cook the OE pads so they blame rotor warpage.

[Saandiaago]

Thanks for the excellent advice as always fellas!

[Zzhou]

PFC 08+ castrol SRF here~

[surlynkid]

I guess it is personal preference but I do not like the initial bite of PFC08. I guess I could get used to it but I would have to completely relearn heel/toe. The 08's work great, but I prefer the control of Pagid yellow.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

I guess it is personal preference but I do not like the initial bite of PFC08. I guess I could get used to it but I would have to completely relearn heel/toe. The 08's work great, but I prefer the control of Pagid yellow.

I only have StopTech Street Perf pads to compare the 08s to, so I love them. I don't want to spend the cash on the pad and rotor wear that 01s would entail just to get a bit more bite, and I've resisted the Pagids because I've read they're picky about bedding, whereas PFCs enable my laziness. Then again, the 08s are no longer available in StopTech ST-60 caliper shape and neither are the 12s that are supposed to replace them; the only choices are 01, 06, 11, and 13 -- so I may end up switching to Pagid.

But why would initial bite affect your heel/toe ability? I shift at the end of the braking zone, not at the beginning. I guess technically doing it earlier would give you extra stopping power from having more engine braking sooner, but it also increases risk of an over-rev, which I always figured is why most people don't downshift at the start of the braking zone even when the RPMs would allow it.

[bigjae1976]

A PF01 will have more aggressive bite but its the release characteristics that I strongly prefer. Much smoother than the Pagid yellows and the PF01s last just as long as the Pagid yellows with the Stoptech BBK.

I think for most...they will prefer the pad that they "grew up" on. A different pad will affect your driving significantly. I've tried a few...it takes a day for me to get used to the pad. Probably worse for someone coming from a lower bite pad like a Pagid Yellow going to a PF01. Face might hit the steering wheel on the first brake zone.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

A PF01 will have more aggressive bite but its the release characteristics that I strongly prefer. Much smoother than the Pagid yellows and the PF01s last just as long as the Pagid yellows with the Stoptech BBK.

I think for most...they will prefer the pad that they "grew up" on. A different pad will affect your driving significantly. I've tried a few...it takes a day for me to get used to the pad. Probably worse for someone coming from a lower bite pad like a Pagid Yellow going to a PF01. Face might hit the steering wheel on the first brake zone.

Wait, what? The PFC 01 sprint compound matches the wear of the Pagid Yellow enduro compound? I wonder how rotor wear compares, but admittedly that's not as frequent a wear item. Then again, I just dropped $740 for a new set of front friction rings.

[surlynkid]

It is a delicate balance to ease into the brakes to not unsettle the car and release to not unsettle the car. If you are used to doing that with more or less pedal travel depending on your pads, changing the pads will change heel/toe timing. I think Big Jae hit the nail on the head that you like what you are used to driving. I never swap pads on the GT3, so I have no bedding issues. There is no doubt that PFC bite like a mofo compared to Pagid yellow, but I am very comfortable with the yellow. Sally had to get used to the PFC, but it is DCT.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Wait, what? The PFC 01 sprint compound matches the wear of the Pagid Yellow enduro compound? I wonder how rotor wear compares, but admittedly that's not as frequent a wear item. Then again, I just dropped $740 for a new set of front friction rings.

I'm pretty sure if you compare specs, the Pagids will have a higher temp rating. So on OEM brakes, the Pagids will last longer. With a ST BBK, Pagid Yellows and ST SR34s had the similar wear rates probably because the BBK runs cooler and you are more likely to stay within the optimal temp range of the PF01s. Compared to others that have run Pagids on ST BBKs, my PF01s and SR34s have clearly lasted just as long or longer. I am 99% sure that the SR34s are the same as the PF01s which is why I bring them up.

[AP3X_FTW]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

I guess it is personal preference but I do not like the initial bite of PFC08. I guess I could get used to it but I would have to completely relearn heel/toe. The 08's work great, but I prefer the control of Pagid yellow.

Couldn't agree more. I used the PFC-08's last year and found the initial bite to be a bit much. I now run Pagid yellow's and feel like I have a bit more modulation. They have both proven to be fantastic pads, but I think it comes down to different driving styles.

[surlynkid]

My wife drives the M3 and likes the PFC08 over the Pagid RS29. She has driven both. The brake pads on the GT3 are so much larger than the ST BBK, that I could have 2/3 the bite and still have more braking ability.