[Matski]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Do you really think if I could show up to my local BMW dealership tomorrow and order an M3 CSL or 1M CSL I would give a hoot what else is sitting on the lot?

You just made the same fallacy in logic that happens almost every time someone defends BMW for making M SUV's. You conveniently made the jump in reasoning that I am unhappy with BMW on the independent basis of them making M SUV's when that was never said.

What I did say was that people like me (sorry for insinuating you think the same) are upset that BMW is focusing on such endeavors as M SUV's, Z/X series crossovers, or whatever to the detriment of their enthusiast or hardcore products. The most "hardcore" car BMW sells in the United States is a sporty GT (M3) or a near sports car with a unsatisfying engine (1M).

Last time I checked Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the SLS and the Black Series, and Porsche has more hardcore cayman/boxster/911 variants than I can name here. What does BMW have?

Well, you did imply that any news of 'sporty SUV's' is equivalent to spitting in our faces, so I'm pretty sure you are dissatisfied with BMW for making them, but besides that I didn't mention any current or future X M product directley anyway, so that's not the assumption I made...

You, and plenty of other users seem to imply BMW have changed, lost their way, or don't offer what they once did.. pretty much any thread about new X products, FWD products, or BMW-i is rife such statements, that then seems to be used by many as justification for buying a comptitors product --- which makes absolutley ZERO sense to me, I felt your post implied that too, apologies if thats not what you meant.

On the other hand - I totally agree, it would be nice to have a fully fledged supercar, the argument about whether or not it really makes sense for BMW to do it now doesn't really belong here - but in simple terms, they are not loosing that many customers, enthusiasts or not, to the R8 or SLS... and let's not write off the M6 before it's even been unveiled.

I think your greivence shouldn't necessarily be levelled against new products such as these wierd X's.... more at the fact the GTS wasn't made available to the U.S. and the fact that other rapid growth markets are coming in to focus more (Russia and China) - and it seems they do want big heavy thunderous SUV's.

[mshab356]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

What about the enthusiast or hardcore segment? You know the one where you offer an E92 M3 CSL or a 1M CSL for the United States.

You know that there is a market out there for a BMW M3 CSL and 1M CSL.

Why cater to enthusiasts as the brand once did, when you can instead develop strange ugly 2 door sporting SUV's for non-enthusiasts.

I'm really struggling to see any near future M product I can be even remotely looking forward to this side of the next generation M3 in what 3 years? In the next 3 years BMW is going to loose a lot of enthusiasts like me while BMW twiddles their thumbs and not give us the CSL cars of the current generation M cars for the meantime.

Blame the US's stupid crash safety requirements. It costs millions of dollars to redesign the crash safety requirements in cars from European standards to US standards. Thus, spending that money to sell such a small amount of vehicles (under 1000 probably) is not worth it from a financial perspective.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Because enthusiasts are 1% of the population. Everyone else is an average joe.

You nailed it. We are 1% of BMW's customers. That means, the other 99% of customers are what they are really thinking about more than us 1% because we alone cannot bring them the sales necessary to survive and expand. That's the job of the other 99%, and the more they're pleased and persuaded to buy new BMW products, the more BMW can fund projects like M3/1M CSL/CRT and others.

[Frosty]

...I dont know if I can get behind this.... ~Frost

[Frosty]

[SCOTT26]

If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.

[Frosty]

.....most who want a 'Supercar' would never buy one, I love seeing R8's as art... buy I wont buy one.

BMW is focusing on 'Sustainability", 'Efficiency" and a far reaching eco friendly premium VISION that will outlive all of us on this forum. As long as they do not continue to buy up other manufactures and become a VW, BWM (3rd best brand on the planet I believe) will be a powerhouse. Allowing it to create cars with 1-series and i-cars profits that will satisfy us all~Frost

[esqu1re]

I forgot they had that concept back in the day. I can definitely see a lot of that design in the old Z4 coupe. Cool post.

[SCOTT26]

The problem is ,regarding CSL and GTS for the North American market is not only legislation and federalisation issues.
But also that US customers will not take a stripped out BMW devoid of luxury equipment. There is not enough customers to justify such a model.

I keep on repeating this.

As for the Xcoupe? It will not follow the design language from 2001. And if approved will be after 2015. The Range Rover Evoque comes first but the The litmus test for the Xcoupe making production is seeing how well the Porsche Cajun fares on the market.
Cajun is a 3dr Coupe in the same proposal as the Xcoupe.

If the Cajun does well , then the Xcoupe will come because it will be an entirely new segment , one that BMW could use to it's advantage.

[Imola.ZHP]

Obviously BMW is doing something right.

The days of cranking out 100,000 model T's is over people. The market now (and moreso in the future) is going to be all about niche vehicles. So, the more "fragmented" your lineup is, the more (overall) you will sell.

Get over it "enthusiasts" selling more and more "fragmented" vehicles helps to keep more pure "enthusiasts" cars in production as well. Especially with tightening fuel economy requirements.

[Augenbrauezug]

I'd buy an x4 tomorrow. I love the x6 and x6m [don't hate until you've at least driven the damn thing!], but they are pricy.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by CJBimmer

+1 ... I even felt this way when the X6 and X1 were introduced. The X6 shouldn't exist/should replace the X5. The X3 should embody the ideas of the X6 but in the 3-series spirit/size and the X1 is retarded.

How exactly is the X1 retarded when BMW can't build them fast enough to meet demand? The sales have proved that people want a small, nimble, SUV.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The problem is ,regarding CSL and GTS for the North American market is not only legislation and federalisation issues.
But also that US customers will not take a stripped out BMW devoid of luxury equipment. There is not enough customers to justify such a model.

I keep on repeating this.

Well, if people truly want a track day toy I guess the M3 GT4 is always an option. From BMW-Motorsports website it looks like they've homolgated the GTS's Rear spoiler and front splitter on the GT4, and it only weights 1430kg....

Shame it costs €125,000 and is not street legal!

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by erhanh

They haven't made a mini-van yet. If you look what Scott says, the second BMW sees a "premium" mini-van market, they will make it. And be assured, they will make an M version of it as well.

Mercedes has already done that with their R class and subsequent AMG version of it.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.

An i8/M1 successor to be shown? Shall we start drooling???!!!

[ES BMW]

I like the idea of the X4, but the X-Coupe... not so much.

With all the new models and ideas coming out of BMW in the near future, I just hope that the company has the resources to continue making a great product while keeping an eye on the enthusiasts. Thank you for bring the 1M to market. This is proof that BMW hasn't forgotten its roots.

[mshab356]

Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug

I'd buy an x4 tomorrow. I love the x6 and x6m [don't hate until you've at least driven the damn thing!], but they are pricy.

THIS x 10000000000000000

Everyone bashes on the X6 and X6M because they are boxy, heavy, whatever. When you drive one, you'll completely change your mind. I felt the same when my father traded his 997 Turbo for one (a freaking Porsche!!! let alone a turbo model). I told him he was crazy for switching to that funky looking X6M. Then I drove it. That thing pulls just as hard as his Turbo did. Unbelievable car to drive, lots of fun (especially for an SAV)!! Moral: don't judge a book by its cover (nor a vehicle by its weight)

And as for this "supercar" coming on Friday... (about damn time they came out with a new M1/equivalent)

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Mercedes has already done that with their R class and subsequent AMG version of it.

True that. But Mercedes is also making SLS, and AMG Black cars, and they even did SLR... And they bring these in US too.. I always say, BMW can built any car they want, but any badge to any car they want. Just among the boring, ugly, fat cars just make 1 or 2 hard core sports car. It doesn't have to have a V12 engine. Just something like Z4MC... That's all I want. 1 sports car out of their 20 luxury boats.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by mshab356

Blame the US's stupid crash safety requirements. It costs millions of dollars to redesign the crash safety requirements in cars from European standards to US standards. Thus, spending that money to sell such a small amount of vehicles (under 1000 probably) is not worth it from a financial perspective.

How does other companies do it?

[Matski]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If you all want a Supercar? Come back on Friday and you will see what the Supercar of the future will be like. Especially in this era of sustainability.

I assume you mean this...

From www.bmwgroup.com

http://www.thomson-webcast.net/de/di...77&language=en

[Keto]

Just got back from European delivery. Saw a few X5's on the roads of Germany/Italy/Austria, but many many many more X6's. Including a X6M. Weird. Perhaps the USA BMW enthusiast market is not the (mainland) Europe enthusiast market. Easiest example of this: Tons of Europeans driving sport wagons -- enthusiast wagons. Couldn't sell those here.

BMW doesn't listen to the forums because the forums are misleading. I remember when reading about the take rate of manual transmissions in the USA a BMW engineer lamented that the USA whines about needing manuals but doesn't buy them.

Dollars speak louder than forum posts.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by erhanh

How does other companies do it?

Daimler AG's €97,000,000,000 vs BMW AG's €60,000,000,000 in revenue is probably a good place to start....


Actually, reading through both Daimler and BMW 2010 financial reports is fascinating... I may post more later!

Edit:

I took the following sales numbers from the BMW 2010 annual report... then sorted them by total sales...

Draw your own conclusions...


Edit 2: Sorry, I thought this might be relevant here just in case people were thinking that BMW was venturing into new 'pointless' segments or 'answering the question nobody asked'

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by Matski

Interesting info. I bet most people wouldn't have thought the X6 had the same percentage of sales than the 3 series coupe.