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      11-26-2012, 08:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Quite the opposite.
BMW is trying to capture a larger market share. By introducing cheaper models, they can do it. It's totally understandable from a business standpoint and I cannot fault BMW for that (every other company is doing the same thing), but as a brand, BMW has been watered down. BMW was once reserved for a certain type of driver. Now it is reserved for people who just care about the badge.

The E46 M3 and E39 M5 were the ultimate driver's cars. We will never see cars like that again.
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      11-26-2012, 08:17 PM   #24
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Nice!
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      11-26-2012, 09:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes. View Post
BMW is trying to capture a larger market share. By introducing cheaper models, they can do it. It's totally understandable from a business standpoint and I cannot fault BMW for that (every other company is doing the same thing), but as a brand, BMW has been watered down. BMW was once reserved for a certain type of driver. Now it is reserved for people who just care about the badge.

The E46 M3 and E39 M5 were the ultimate driver's cars. We will never see cars like that again.
+10000

Very well said
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      11-26-2012, 09:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes. View Post
BMW is trying to capture a larger market share. By introducing cheaper models, they can do it. It's totally understandable from a business standpoint and I cannot fault BMW for that (every other company is doing the same thing), but as a brand, BMW has been watered down. BMW was once reserved for a certain type of driver. Now it is reserved for people who just care about the badge.

The E46 M3 and E39 M5 were the ultimate driver's cars. We will never see cars like that again.
Thanks. Bottom line is BMW is trying to be a Toyota or GM. The company is departing from core values that differentiated the brand. If at some point the 3er becomes an Altima, then why buy the BMW? With every generation, it gets A little closer. Imagine a poorly constructed sedan with blah styling, FWD, auto only transmission, buzzy four, and numb steering. Sound like a BMW?

There is a reason why people pay the price premium. If that goes away there is no need to pay the premium. Yes, the halo of the brand will continue but that only lasts for so long.
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      11-26-2012, 10:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes. View Post
BMW is trying to capture a larger market share. By introducing cheaper models, they can do it. It's totally understandable from a business standpoint and I cannot fault BMW for that (every other company is doing the same thing), but as a brand, BMW has been watered down. BMW was once reserved for a certain type of driver. Now it is reserved for people who just care about the badge.

The E46 M3 and E39 M5 were the ultimate driver's cars. We will never see cars like that again.
I think the fear is that they will sell their soul in the pursuit of profits. Other successful companies have gone down this same path and have come out a shell of their former selves. I am not saying that BMW will necessarily loose their soul, but its hard not to fathom the brand equity taking a hit when there is a FWD car with the same badge as a performance RWD car sitting in the same dealership. Why buy a BMW anymore when you could just as easily buy a FWD Honda?
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      11-27-2012, 12:52 AM   #28
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and here comes the minivan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      11-27-2012, 03:21 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
Don't be too anxious regarding the M2.
BMW has learned from the success of the 1M. They know there is a big niche for a small, nimble pure fun car.
The decission to go for an I4 is perfectly right in this direction!
The car will have approx. the same power as the outgoing 1M Coupe but with around 150 kg less weight and a much more refined chassis/suspension.

This combination can be awesome if they make no big faults...
Unfortunately there is a big caveat here: engine performance @ high speeds. A high strung 2 liter 4-cyl engine, even with 340 hp, is no performance match for 6-cyl 3 liter rig. And it will hurt the overtaking maneuvers abominally. I just spent a week in 250 hp new Focus ST and believe me, it's such a sad thing to feel the engine limitation soon after 100 kmh.

I'm all for lightness and nimble steering, but not at the cost of every day usability. And do you really believe that the entry-level M cash-cow will be that much lighter with all the options they are bound to include to make a model profitable? This smaller engine will buck under the weight of your 3-zone climate control, LED lighted footwells, cameras every corner, miles and miles of additional electrical cordage.

And then there is a big question of M135 with easily chipped IL6 N55. Why does it even exist when BMW plans for 4-cyl M2? This new M135 can go on par with Porsche Cayman, compensating Cayman's precision with engine power. Will 4-cyl M2 be able to do so? My guess it will be ripped apart.

P.S. My rant is of course triggered by the now badly damaged plan to jump from 135 directly into M2.. But we'll see what we'll see.

Last edited by scargizmo; 11-27-2012 at 03:26 AM.
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      11-27-2012, 03:33 AM   #30
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Thanks for sharing Scott but I'm lost with all these new future models.

As long the M series keeps high revving rwd platform (Lower weight please) that can haul me and my friends around in style and kick ass on the track then I'm all good.

Will there be an X3M?
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      11-27-2012, 05:40 AM   #31
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How many friends do you haul around on average at one time?

The X3M is dead.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Envyscorpio View Post
...As long the M series keeps high revving rwd platform (Lower weight please) that can haul me and my friends around in style and kick ass on the track then I'm all good.

Will there be an X3M?
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      11-27-2012, 05:44 AM   #32
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Nope, that we are not getting in NA, however we are getting the Mini Traveller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
and here comes the minivan
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      11-27-2012, 06:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I would assume that to mean that the next generation of the 2-series (based on the 2017+ FWD 1-series platform) will likely be FWD as well. That's a real shame, as it means BMW will no longer make a small RWD car.
As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast, my friend!"

I get the exact opposite impression. I think the small RWD BMW will remain for generations to come. The newer trend in passenger car construction is to employ fewer platforms to support a wider range of vehicle segments. Look at what VAG is doing with their new MQB/MLB component system for example. BMW already uses the same basic architecture for the F2x/F3x (while F0x/F1x also share a platform as well).

Even as the 3 continues to grow in size, smaller vehicles can share the same chassis and components. Maybe eventually all RWD BMWs share the same common, highly flexible, underpinnings. Of course, they could do the same with FWD vehicles too, allowing for much larger offerings than are planned in the near term. That may scare some people too, but as long as there is still a market for RWD vehicles, BMW will keep building them. I would suggest that market will remain healthy for the foreseeable future since it is difficult to properly harness more than ~300hp or so through wheels that are responsible for both steering and propelling the car. AWD helps of course but you can only do so much with the transverse (front engined) layout.
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      11-27-2012, 07:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes. View Post
The E46 M3 and E39 M5 were the ultimate driver's cars. We will never see cars like that again.
Apart from being turbocharged, the M2 will be in the ace in the cards if and only if BMW doesn't increase its size and weight with every generation that passes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      11-27-2012, 08:13 AM   #35
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Give me a 1er Sedan or 2er GC with Diesel a 6MT and Xdrive......
I'll go buy one!!!
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      11-27-2012, 10:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
Don't be too anxious regarding the M2.
BMW has learned from the success of the 1M. They know there is a big niche for a small, nimble pure fun car.
The decission to go for an I4 is perfectly right in this direction!
The car will have approx. the same power as the outgoing 1M Coupe but with around 150 kg less weight and a much more refined chassis/suspension.

This combination can be awesome if they make no big faults...
I think when BMW said "no huge competitor in the HP race" they meant this will not be a 300+hp car. Even if BMW says it will deliver the same performance as a 1M you have to keep in mind that by the time it hits the street that performance will not be impressive. The only hope is that the engine and drive train will have the strength to be tuned.
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      11-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Envyscorpio View Post
Thanks for sharing Scott but I'm lost with all these new future models.

As long the M series keeps high revving rwd platform (Lower weight please) that can haul me and my friends around in style and kick ass on the track then I'm all good.

Will there be an X3M?
BMW M President, Dr. Nitschke, confirmed to us in March that there will be no X3M, at least for this generation X3 (F25). But, it wasn't ruled out for the next generation X3.
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      11-27-2012, 01:54 PM   #38
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      11-27-2012, 02:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
BMW M President, Dr. Nitschke, confirmed to us in March that there will be no X3M, at least for this generation X3 (F25). But, it wasn't ruled out for the next generation X3.
When we get down to the X3M the official line is no. However back in the days of the X6M being developed they said the same around the X5M.
Now that the upcoming X4 will bring an X4M and like X6 is heavily based on the X5 sister vehicle as is X4 to X3. Potentially they could develop an X3M alongside the X4M. It all depends on how the market performs, demand for more performance SUVs convinced BMW to put the X5 M into production which together with the X6M brings together a huge sales and profit injection for the two concepts.

The potential for the X4M is too great to ignore especially for markets where the X6M is that markets best selling M car. There is demand for a mid-sized car for those that find the X6M out of reach.
Given its importance and what it will eventually face BMW M will make sure the X4M will be a very special car indeed.

I understand that employees at Spartanburg will be shown the new X4 model very soon.

BMW do not partcipate in the tit-for-tat horsepower race , BMW adheres to what is suitable for what the engine is capable of.
Just because a competitor can go faster in a straight line does it mean it is a better car? That answer is no because not all roads are straight. BMW M customers expect a driving experience not numbers.
That is why the current M3 Coupe has remained at the top for five years seeing off all-comers.

Audi might dazzle you with huge numbers etc but are you still talking about the Audi RS 3 or the BMW 1er M Coupe? - which car has lingered in the memory? and right away you know the answer.
As BMW states the base car has to have a good degree of competency to follow as an M car , you have that base and then you can progress its development. If you have a chassis has been maligned by the press you build on that but you still have that problem because there is no other direction to go.

BMW are keen to keep the same formula for the M2 as the 1er M Coupe, except it will become lighter and incorporate a four door model for the first time. The engine will be a four cylinder with Turbo and will put out the same numbers as before. But as enthusiasts the world over were drawn by the promise of one of the best M cars ever they were not disappointed and they were not after numbers they wanted a car that done what it promised in everyway possible - They wanted a pure M car. Which it was and now here comes phase II of progress.

The Gran Coupe version of the 2er Coupe will retain rear-wheel-drive because BMW know it will have that advantage over the FWD Mercedes-Benz CLA and Audi A3 Sedan. BMW also know that enthusiasts shopping for this type of car would very possibly take the BMW.
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      11-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scargizmo View Post
Unfortunately there is a big caveat here: engine performance @ high speeds. A high strung 2 liter 4-cyl engine, even with 340 hp, is no performance match for 6-cyl 3 liter rig. And it will hurt the overtaking maneuvers abominally. ...
Sorry - this is simple physics: Performance of two engines with nearly same hp/torque is the same regardless whether it comes from 2.x or 3.x liter displacement.
Why you are referring to a 250hp Ford when I am talking about an upcoming M2 with same hp/torque as the outgoing 1M - I don't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scargizmo View Post
And then there is a big question of M135 with easily chipped IL6 N55. Why does it even exist when BMW plans for 4-cyl M2? This new M135 can go on par with Porsche Cayman, compensating Cayman's precision with engine power. Will 4-cyl M2 be able to do so? My guess it will be ripped apart.
And here you give yourself the answer: BMW is not totally braindead. If they come up with an M2 on top of the M135i it will have better performance/dynamics straight line AND track.
How this could be achived is "simple": Deliver only slightly more hp than the M135i (so I am talking about 20 hp here, which means on par with the 1M) BUT make it around 100kg lighter.
This would be the recipe for the M2 if I follow Scott correctly.
And please stop dreaming of your "easily engine chippin"!
Why the hell should BMW put effort in developing/building easily chippable M engines?
If you want to chip - buy an M135i ... and loose your warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
I think when BMW said "no huge competitor in the HP race" they meant this will not be a 300+hp car. Even if BMW says it will deliver the same performance as a 1M you have to keep in mind that by the time it hits the street that performance will not be impressive. The only hope is that the engine and drive train will have the strength to be tuned
No - BMW (SCOTT) meant, that they see no sense in further pushing the hp numbers in this segment (Audi RS3, Merc A45 AMG, 1M Coupe). They are all in the 340-350hp ballpark right now. Pushing the hp race to 380-400hp in this segment (which might be a logical/normal step for an 340hp 1M successor) is what SCOTT imho ruled out. He never said it must have lower hp than is standard in this segment right now.

And btw: straight line performance was never impressive with the 1M and will also not be the case with the M2. But track performance/handling will be - I expect something more into direction of todays Cayman R

Just noticed: Scott already did put it into context
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      11-27-2012, 02:35 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
BMW are keen to keep the same formula for the M2 as the 1er M Coupe, except it will become lighter and incorporate a four door model for the first time. The engine will be a four cylinder with Turbo and will put out the same numbers as before. But as enthusiasts the world over were drawn by the promise of one of the best M cars ever they were not disappointed and they were not after numbers they wanted a car that done what it promised in everyway possible - They wanted a pure M car. Which it was and now here comes phase II of progress.
Lighter and more power. Wrap it up, I'll take it.
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      11-27-2012, 03:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
...


an M2 on top of the M135i...




has it been confirmed or even suggested that the 6 cyl. engines will persist in the line-up once the M2 4 cyl. comes out? might the n20 +/- a little more tweaking to say 260-270hp or so become the top non-M model?
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      11-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Greenkirby21 View Post
So when will the next 1er/2er be released in the USA aka when will the replacement for the north america E82 come out! Is IAA in september? so that would probably mean till 2014!
Is there an official release date for the 2er in the US? If it's 2014 then the M2 could be sometime close to 2016??
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      11-27-2012, 06:48 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
As Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast, my friend!"

I get the exact opposite impression. I think the small RWD BMW will remain for generations to come. The newer trend in passenger car construction is to employ fewer platforms to support a wider range of vehicle segments. Look at what VAG is doing with their new MQB/MLB component system for example. BMW already uses the same basic architecture for the F2x/F3x (while F0x/F1x also share a platform as well).

Even as the 3 continues to grow in size, smaller vehicles can share the same chassis and components. Maybe eventually all RWD BMWs share the same common, highly flexible, underpinnings. Of course, they could do the same with FWD vehicles too, allowing for much larger offerings than are planned in the near term. That may scare some people too, but as long as there is still a market for RWD vehicles, BMW will keep building them. I would suggest that market will remain healthy for the foreseeable future since it is difficult to properly harness more than ~300hp or so through wheels that are responsible for both steering and propelling the car. AWD helps of course but you can only do so much with the transverse (front engined) layout.
That's an interesting theory. You're guessing that BMW will use the F3X replacement platform to underpin the next-generation 2-series models (post F2X), rather than use the UKL platform that will be used in the post-F2X 1-series models. UKL is going to be much closer in size to the next-generation 2-series cars than the post-F3X 3-series platform will be, though. You're banking on that 3-series platform to be very flexible...

I'd love to see your theory come true, because I'm a firm believer that the world will always need a small RWD sedan. I guess we'll see in five years. Winner buys the other a beer in 2017?
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