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      09-27-2013, 01:52 PM   #89
touringfanatic
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Simply heretical and wrong. They're not going to gain anything but ruining probably the best driving hatchback known to mankind. Reasons for which they call this an improvement are ridiculuos and they're trying to keep up with the competition they already outsell. Those who don't comprehend the loss ought to drive any of the e8x 1series models. It really was the ultimate driving machine in its class that is going to be killed for ultimate grocery runabout. BMW won't see any justifiable financial gain either in the end because this decision is a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketplace (In my modest opinion their decions were made because of the success of the current a-class and the thing they're so wrong about is that is more successful because of the much improved design and not the more spacious fwd arangement) .
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      09-27-2013, 03:04 PM   #90
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Simply heretical and wrong. They're not going to gain anything but ruining probably the best driving hatchback known to mankind. Reasons for which they call this an improvement are ridiculuos and they're trying to keep up with the competition they already outsell. Those who don't comprehend the loss ought to drive any of the e8x 1series models. It really was the ultimate driving machine in its class that is going to be killed for ultimate grocery runabout. BMW won't see any justifiable financial gain either in the end because this decision is a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketplace (In my modest opinion their decions were made because of the success of the current a-class and the thing they're so wrong about is that is more successful because of the much improved design and not the more spacious fwd arangement) .
I'm not really arguing for a fwd car, but having worked in Germany when the E87 came out, and having access to a car pool where you could pick it or a Golf (plus many others, but I drove those two frequently, plus a few E91 wagons) it was not the better car. Sales numbers and magazine reviews clearly back this up. The 1er understeered more than the Golf, had the stupid RFTs and the resulting choppy ride, the transmission tunnel rendered the middle rear seat a joke and the FR layout made front seat leg room relatively short when compared to the Mk4 and especially the Mk5 Golf.

This didn't keep me from buying an E82 135i when they came out over here, but it still had lots of inherent understeer, RFT tires (until I replaced them) and less room than a Golf inside. But it at least had the power to induce plenty of throttle based oversteer and also had much better brakes than the other E8x cars.

If BMW is going to compete in this market, MINI can only do so much and without starting yet another silly sub brand like the i cars, this seems like the only solution. Provided (and this is huge for me) they offer a rwd sedan that's smaller than the F30, I don't mind if there's a smaller, fwd car underneath it that offers more practicality and more efficiency. I just hope there's more than what MB is offering with a larger C Class and the CLA which is not much smaller than the F30.
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      09-27-2013, 03:11 PM   #91
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Funny how everyone seems to know what's best for BMW. Probably because BMW has no experience as a car manufacturer. Maybe you all can work for them and save the company before it's too late. I'm sure it would be really successful.
If you don't like it, move on. Everyone complains about all the new models before they are out, yet so many people seem to be buying them and enjoying them when they are released. Why is that? Hmmm.
All the complainers should read this. So many assume that what they want is what would be best for the company, and if the company doesn't delivery exactly what they want then the sky is falling and it's time to jump ship. If you don't like it, stick with your 200,000 mile E36 325 and Sony Discman, and stop complaining.
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      09-27-2013, 03:33 PM   #92
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Because they're competing with everyone else. If Mercedes and Audi are offering little FWD cars, BMW probably doesn't feel like they can win over enough customers with a RWD model. So they'll offer FWD & AWD as well. As enthusiast we want RWD, but it's the masses that companies make the majority of their money from. The FWD cars that Mercedes and Audi make aren't for enthusiast either so this is BMW positioning themselves to compete for overall sales. Hopefully BMW has plans in place for some new RWD cars to please enthusiast.
But wouldn't a non-enthusiasts not really care if its fwd or rwd? I doubt the masses are demanding for fwd or even have a preference.
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      09-27-2013, 03:36 PM   #93
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This is on target. True enthusiasts make up a small portion of not only BMW's sales, but even brands like Porsche have a large number of people that buy just for the name.
If the masses really don't have a preference of fwd or rwd then why not just keep the rwd standard?
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      09-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #94
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If the masses really don't have a preference of fwd or rwd then why not just keep the rwd standard?
RWD is more expensive to produce than FWD. This is what originally made companies switch to FWD. They told everyone that FWD handled better and did better in the snow, which wasn't true.
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      09-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #95
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If the masses really don't have a preference of fwd or rwd then why not just keep the rwd standard?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's cheaper to build FWD cars. If that's true, then BMW is simply trying to introduce a car at a price point that is competitive with it's german rivals.
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      09-27-2013, 03:43 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Roberto Cervezas View Post
All the complainers should read this. So many assume that what they want is what would be best for the company, and if the company doesn't delivery exactly what they want then the sky is falling and it's time to jump ship. If you don't like it, stick with your 200,000 mile E36 325 and Sony Discman, and stop complaining.
I don't think there is one person in here that bought a BMW because it "would be best for the company". Or you and the other guy don't get it? The complaints are not about the company financial portfolio, -which nobody cares anyway because that is their problem-, they are about the product they deliver.

No, the sky is not gonna fall, relax man, you can buy that FWD BMW rival for Aston Martin Cygnet soon.
If somebody fights for something it means it cares about that, there is a big difference. Here, we all love BMW, otherwise we will not bother arguing about those cars.

Also, there is no need to stick with a Sony discman (BTW, tube amplifieres rules and SA CD still sounds better than any data loss iPod or other "evolved" MP3 player you might use, so your analogy is very poor), there are many companies offering good products.
You know, a true melomaniac does not listen his Zeppelin concert in his iPad.
You might call it evolution, but it is not. It is just an afordable compromise.
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      09-27-2013, 03:45 PM   #97
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RWD is more expensive to produce than FWD. This is what originally made companies switch to FWD. They told everyone that FWD handled better and did better in the snow, which wasn't true.
You just proved my point. It is cheaper. A compromise.
And BTW, FWD does better in the snow than RWD.
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      09-27-2013, 03:50 PM   #98
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BMW

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      09-27-2013, 03:55 PM   #99
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I don't think there is one person in here that bought a BMW because it "would be best for the company". Or you and the other guy don't get it? The complaints are not about the company financial portfolio, -which nobody cares anyway because that is their problem-, they are about the product they deliver.

No, the sky is not gonna fall, relax man, you can buy that FWD BMW rival for Aston Martin Cygnet soon.
If somebody fights for something it means it cares about that, there is a big difference. Here, we all love BMW, otherwise we will not bother arguing about those cars.

Also, there is no need to stick with a Sony discman (BTW, tube amplifieres rules and SA CD still sounds better than any data loss iPod or other "evolved" MP3 player you might use, so your analogy is very poor), there are many companies offering good products.
You know, a true melomaniac does not listen his Zeppelin concert in his iPad.
You might call it evolution, but it is not. It is just an afordable compromise.
You're probably not in my line of fire if you know that tube amplifiers rule, and I by no means would buy a fwd BMW. The fact cannot be ignored that companies need to make money, and a car of this type is what will allow BMW to produce the cars people on this forum want. BMW is not getting rid of rwd, so why are so many freaking out and saying they are leaving the brand? I guess that was the point I was making.
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      09-27-2013, 03:57 PM   #100
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Leave the FWD to Mini Cooper. Just like how the ultra luxury is left to Rolls Royce.
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      09-27-2013, 04:00 PM   #101
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You just proved my point. It is cheaper. A compromise.
And BTW, FWD does better in the snow than RWD.
FWD does not do better in the snow. A car with more of its weight on the drive wheels does better in the snow. If the weight is over the front wheels on a fwd car then it will have decent traction. Against a rwd Porsche with snow tires though, it will not do well since the Porsche has an even larger percentage of its weight on the drive wheels. The X factor is physics, which dictates that the cars weight will transfer to the rear of the car under acceleration. Rwd for the win, in my opinion.
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      09-27-2013, 04:03 PM   #102
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And BTW, FWD does better in the snow than RWD.
Both have two drive wheels so traction is roughly the same given same size and type of tires. Driving dynamics are very different and require different skills. Many people like to be able to steer with the throttle (myself included). A FWD car is difficult-to-impossible to course correct with throttle and counter steer.
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      09-27-2013, 04:12 PM   #103
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Both have two drive wheels so traction is roughly the same given same size and type of tires.
This is really only true if you keep the weight distribution the same, so comparing a fwd car with a 65/35 balance is going to have much better traction than all but things like a 911, with a 35/65 balance.
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      09-27-2013, 04:13 PM   #104
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BMW is REALLY positioning itself to be the German Toyota.
All the manufactures feel they need to produced 6,000,000 cars a YEAR to survive. Not sure why that's the majic number, but they're all going for more volume to try to reduce costs.
I just think it cheapens the brand. That's what Mini is suppose to do, but they'll build this on the Mini chasis and charge 20% more.

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      09-27-2013, 04:32 PM   #105
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This is really only true if you keep the weight distribution the same, so comparing a fwd car with a 65/35 balance is going to have much better traction than all but things like a 911, with a 35/65 balance.
Exactly.
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      09-27-2013, 04:33 PM   #106
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...and for BMW to grow in that segment then their COMPACT cars have to grow in terms of packaging and the solution to increase interior space is by adopting FWD.
Or the i3, which makes all FWD compact cars look like dinosaurs including those from MINI dare I say. In my mind the future of the compact performance sedan must be in the i3 DNA or it will simply wither and fade away.

I truly hope that this technology continues to evolve and merges into mainstream BMWs so the 2 Series is can be RWD like the i3.
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      09-27-2013, 04:40 PM   #107
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This is really only true if you keep the weight distribution the same, so comparing a fwd car with a 65/35 balance is going to have much better traction than all but things like a 911, with a 35/65 balance.
Agree that weight balance effects things, but there is also weight transfer. In the end you will be noticing the vastly different handling characteristics long before traction differences - at least in my experience.
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      09-27-2013, 04:47 PM   #108
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This is really only true if you keep the weight distribution the same, so comparing a fwd car with a 65/35 balance is going to have much better traction than all but things like a 911, with a 35/65 balance.
Agree that weight balance effects things, but there is also weight transfer. In the end you will be noticing the vastly different handling characteristics long before traction differences - at least in my experience.
Agreed, for those of us that have track experience and care. My wife would plow into the first thing she came across with rwd but can manage with awd or fwd.
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      09-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #109
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I wonder if the M division will build an AWD M version of this 1 series to compete with the CLA AMG and RS3. If so, I'd expect a price tag of about 50k. That's about the same price as a 335xi Msport with better performance for those looking for a high performance sedan.
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      09-27-2013, 05:31 PM   #110
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Disregarding the goodbye to the world's last RWD hatchback, which is a colossal shame, I actually would've preferred to see a bmw subbrand (akin to bmw i) to promote these cheaper fwd cars than to have one amidst bmw's main lineup.

It is really saddening for a bmw fan to see the company slowly (well, not that slowly as a matter of fact) throw away all principles that once led to the "ultimate driving machine" in favor of market share.

And even though I understand the need to look for other pieces of the market in order to expand, I actually do think they're undermining their legacy that got them to the top of the premium brands in the first place.

That research about how 1er owners didn't know their cars were RWD was misinterpreted, in my opinion. The fact that a consumer doesn't understand how a car works does not mean they don't appreciate how well it performs, especially in comparison to the competition.

I think it was Henry Ford that said if consumers were asked what they wanted at the time the car was invented, they would've answered a faster horse instead of a motored carriage, even thought they would've preferred the carriage all along, and never knew it.

BMW consumers (at least historically) want a car that has more dynamic and sporting appeals than the competition, and RWD plays a huge part in giving BMWs that dynamic edge, even if only a small part of the consumers (us, enthusiasts) is actually aware of how it works. But a FWD 1er has no difference in comparison to an a3 or an A-Klasse, except for the design and the badge.

Unfortunately, though, that just means that the consumer profile of bmw will change - enthusiasts will have to look elsewhere since their cars no longer have that dynamic edge, and all that's left will be badge whores and poseurs. A pity, really.

But, just as the consumer is only interested in their own needs and wants, BMW is only interested in profits. So, to each their own. My f20 is my first BMW, but the way things are going, I don't even know if I'll ever go for a second. In any case, to me, doomsday came way before this announcement, though - it happened when car magazines elected a cadillac as a better driver's car than a 3 series.
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