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      09-28-2013, 03:20 PM   #133
quality_sound
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Originally Posted by Tracus
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Originally Posted by Roberto Cervezas View Post
RWD is more expensive to produce than FWD. This is what originally made companies switch to FWD. They told everyone that FWD handled better and did better in the snow, which wasn't true.
You just proved my point. It is cheaper. A compromise.
And BTW, FWD does better in the snow than RWD.
No it doesn't. Putting a car in a traction-limited environment then having one pair of wheels that provides steering AND drive/braking is stupid. A tire only has so much traction. When it has to do twice as much work AND you have less traction available to start with, how the hell is that better?
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      09-28-2013, 03:23 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Roberto Cervezas
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I don't think there is one person in here that bought a BMW because it "would be best for the company". Or you and the other guy don't get it? The complaints are not about the company financial portfolio, -which nobody cares anyway because that is their problem-, they are about the product they deliver.

No, the sky is not gonna fall, relax man, you can buy that FWD BMW rival for Aston Martin Cygnet soon.
If somebody fights for something it means it cares about that, there is a big difference. Here, we all love BMW, otherwise we will not bother arguing about those cars.

Also, there is no need to stick with a Sony discman (BTW, tube amplifieres rules and SA CD still sounds better than any data loss iPod or other "evolved" MP3 player you might use, so your analogy is very poor), there are many companies offering good products.
You know, a true melomaniac does not listen his Zeppelin concert in his iPad.
You might call it evolution, but it is not. It is just an afordable compromise.
You're probably not in my line of fire if you know that tube amplifiers rule, and I by no means would buy a fwd BMW. The fact cannot be ignored that companies need to make money, and a car of this type is what will allow BMW to produce the cars people on this forum want. BMW is not getting rid of rwd, so why are so many freaking out and saying they are leaving the brand? I guess that was the point I was making.
Because not everyone wants a car the size of the F30 to get a RWD sedan. Yes, if you want a coupe and the 2er stays RWD you'll have an option but sedan lovers will not.
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      09-28-2013, 07:29 PM   #135
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Why is it when FWD is mentioned but disclosed in a way that states how it will be implemented that many go the full Kanye and rant knowing all too well that these decisions will not affect them?

Watch the IAA press conference to hear why BMW is progressing as a company.
The "global" market is expanding and there is great demand for compact premium cars. In that segment there is a requirement for extra space and flexibility and for BMW to grow in that segment then their COMPACT cars have to grow in terms of packaging and the solution to increase interior space is by adopting FWD.

The BMW UKL cars will be closer aligned to the next MINI which for the segment you are going to see some impressive technology filter down from BMW to MINI.
The UKL matrix is adaptable between BMW and MINI and modular so a full range of models can be developed by strategic placement of the modular areas to identify many individual models. It also gives MINI a serious profit surge than the current car.

The 1er Sedan will come with a MINI Twin , but since you protest too much to care? then you will still receive a 2er Gran Coupe in 2015.
The sportier nature of the new 2er Coupe and how it fits between the 1er , 3er and 4er will be revealed on October 25.

I will repeat what BMW advertises over and over again that I see on TV commercials:

"We only make one thing. The Ultimate Driving Machine"

By selling a FWD car as a BMW, that will no longer be the case. I don't care if it is the best damn handling FWD car there is, it will not have 50:50 weight distribution and it will NOT be the ultimate driving machine. Say what you want, but do you think most real BMW enthusiasts are that gullible to believe otherwise?
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      09-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #136
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I wish BMW could keep a good balance between cost&price.
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      09-29-2013, 05:01 AM   #137
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I assume the switch from RWD to WWD on the 1 series is to save money which means that saving will be passed on to us the consumer yes? No didn't think so.
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      09-29-2013, 02:24 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Cervezas View Post
RWD is more expensive to produce than FWD. This is what originally made companies switch to FWD. They told everyone that FWD handled better and did better in the snow, which wasn't true.
+1

In addition to this: im sorry but mini is not the greatest fwd ever build. It is good, but there are cheaper and better cars in terms of driving experience.

Moving to fwd is risky, simply because this segment is filled with things like ford focus, alfa romeo and many others, cheaper but yet joy to drive cars. I dont believe bmw gonna make a milestone in this segment, like they did with 3series, but i predict they will lie they did.
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      09-29-2013, 05:49 PM   #139
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The R53 Mini was quite a lot of fun to drive so it's certainly possible to build a fun drivers car with a FWD platform. The issue is that recently BMW has no interest in building drivers cars. Just look at the 135i which should have been a great drivers car on paper but understeers so badly and cooks its brakes after a couple quick laps. I often feel disappointed after a spirited driver.
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      09-29-2013, 07:10 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
No it doesn't. Putting a car in a traction-limited environment then having one pair of wheels that provides steering AND drive/braking is stupid. A tire only has so much traction. When it has to do twice as much work AND you have less traction available to start with, how the hell is that better?
FWD cars usually have a front weight bias. The extra weight on the front wheels helps with traction in the snow. I've had a lot of experience with FWD and RWD in the snow and I've always found FWD easier to manage.
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      09-29-2013, 07:31 PM   #141
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the greatest FWD car ever made, IMO, is:

Lancia Fulvia HF. rally champion, as well as one of the best handling cars ever.

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      09-30-2013, 07:23 AM   #142
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Why not just offer the 114 116 118 and 120 models in FWD? And keep the performance models 125 and above RWD?

If the argument for FWD is that 90% of 1 series buyers dont know it's RWD then I want to know which models they buy... I'd bet it's not the 125d/i or M135i
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      09-30-2013, 08:41 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by late apex
Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
No it doesn't. Putting a car in a traction-limited environment then having one pair of wheels that provides steering AND drive/braking is stupid. A tire only has so much traction. When it has to do twice as much work AND you have less traction available to start with, how the hell is that better?
FWD cars usually have a front weight bias. The extra weight on the front wheels helps with traction in the snow. I've had a lot of experience with FWD and RWD in the snow and I've always found FWD easier to manage.
So have I. I drove my M3 through two German winters, one being the worst in the last 70 years. RWD was orders of magnitude easier IMO. FWD cars would understeer like mad and constantly slide instead of turning. And yes, I had true winter tires on the cars as German law requires them.
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      09-30-2013, 04:35 PM   #144
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Why (((
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      10-01-2013, 05:06 AM   #145
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Here's what we can look forward to: FWD BMW's (oxymoron, right ? WRONG!)

From Jalopnik:


"It looks like the BMW 1-Series here overcooked the exit coming out of the right-hand bend, and in trying to correct the driver sent it into the Armco. Despite what did not look like a Fun Time, the core structure of the car looked to remain intact. Unfortunately we don't know much more about the occupants besides what's in this video."






http://jalopnik.com/this-insane-cras...nge-1423110585
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      10-01-2013, 06:57 AM   #146
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I saw this a few days back. I'm not sure why these people didn't stop to check on the driver - I'm not too familiar with Nurburgring's rules, but I've heard it's a hefty fee for a crash at the 'ring. There are just so many videos on youtube alone of crashes on there - doesn't matter the brand.
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      10-01-2013, 08:00 AM   #147
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BMW has already let it be known that the future 1-series will be FWD with the platform based on the Mini. This in no way implies that other series will be FWD. BMW, like other manufacturers, is responding to a market where people are totally ignorant of which wheels are driven and could care less. Did anyone ever think BMW would build Family Trucksters? Yet we have the X1, X3, X5, and the hideous X6. As Vito Corleone once said "it's just business".
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      10-01-2013, 08:54 AM   #148
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+1

Many do not know/appreciate the downsides of front-wheel drive and, given previously marketing by many manufacturers, are convinced front-wheel drive is actually better.

The same is true of AWD. With the exception of a few high end active systems (Porsche, etc.), AWD inherently decreases handling performance by increasing understeer, etc. Yet, many here will argue passionately this is not the case.

Marketing and consumer ignorance are powerful tools for manufacturers to exploit.
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      10-01-2013, 09:01 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Elk View Post
+1

Many do not know/appreciate the downsides of front-wheel drive and, given previously marketing by many manufacturers, are convinced front-wheel drive is actually better.

The same is true of AWD. With the exception of a few high end active systems (Porsche, etc.), AWD inherently decreases handling performance by increasing understeer, etc. Yet, many here will argue passionately this is not the case.

Marketing and consumer ignorance are powerful tools for manufacturers to exploit.
This.
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      10-01-2013, 09:57 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by 34.50 View Post
I saw this a few days back. I'm not sure why these people didn't stop to check on the driver - I'm not too familiar with Nurburgring's rules, but I've heard it's a hefty fee for a crash at the 'ring. There are just so many videos on youtube alone of crashes on there - doesn't matter the brand.
Call the emergency number and don't stop, that's what the ring wants you to do, but there are a lot of people watching on the sides so no need to call for the drivers.
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      10-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #151
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I saw this a few days back. I'm not sure why these people didn't stop to check on the driver
Why do people think it's a good idea to "stop to check," be it on public roads or a track? Could be the dumbest thing somone could ever do.

You'll be called a hero afterwards, though...but only if you die.
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      10-01-2013, 03:23 PM   #152
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That research about how 1er owners didn't know their cars were RWD was misinterpreted, in my opinion.
I don't think it was misinterpreted, as I don't think it even existed, I believe it's just BMW marketing dept bullshit to justify moving to a fwd platform.

I've yet to hear of ANY 1 Series owner on any forum or in person say they have been contacted by BMW or any research company and asked the question.
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      10-01-2013, 03:38 PM   #153
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BMW consumers (at least historically) want a car that has more dynamic and sporting appeals than the competition, and RWD plays a huge part in giving BMWs that dynamic edge, even if only a small part of the consumers (us, enthusiasts) is actually aware of how it works. But a FWD 1er has no difference in comparison to an a3 or an A-Klasse, except for the design and the badge.

Unfortunately, though, that just means that the consumer profile of bmw will change - enthusiasts will have to look elsewhere since their cars no longer have that dynamic edge, and all that's left will be badge whores and poseurs. A pity, really.
I think the consumer profile of BMW has already changed, certainley it has here in the UK, and I'd say that as much as 80%+ of BMW buyers in the UK are badge whores and poseurs, rather than enthusiasts.


I loathe fwd cars, they are like kitchen appliances.

I've unfortunately had to own/drive a lot of fwd cars during my 30+ years driving, and only 3 stand out as being fun and interesting to own/drive, and with two of them that was largely because they had longitudinal engine/trannys rather than traditional fwd transverse engine layouts.

Those 3 were:-

Saab 900 T16S
Alfasud Ti
Morris/Austin Cooper S 1275
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      10-01-2013, 05:27 PM   #154
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I think the consumer profile of BMW has already changed, certainley it has here in the UK, and I'd say that as much as 80%+ of BMW buyers in the UK are badge whores and poseurs, rather than enthusiasts.
I know what you mean, here in Brazil the situation is just as bad. But at least I think that Audi consumers are still worse poseurs and badge whores! hahah
Mercedes' are perhaps a little better?
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