Porsche 911 (997.2 C2S) vs M3

Bonjour à tous,

L’année dernière, je convoitais une 911 Carrera S 997.2 et envisageais d’échanger mon E90 M3 contre un. Après des mois de recherche, l’un d’eux s’est présenté à mon Carmax local, alors je l’ai réservé pour un essai routier. (Je pensais que j'attraperais une 911 avec la célèbre garantie prolongée Carmax!)

La route ne s'est pas du tout déroulée comme je m'y attendais ! À mon arrivée, j'ai trouvé que le 997.2 C2S était mal entretenu - sévèrement altéré et usé. Même en mouvement, ce n'était pas l'expérience transcendante à laquelle je m'attendais. Le test de conduite m'a brisé ma convoitise 997.2, bien que j'essaie toujours de comprendre à quel point la déception était particulière à cette voiture.

(Voilà mon article de blog avec les détails complets du lecteur.)

Est-ce que l'un d'entre vous est venu ou est allé à 997.2 C2S? Si oui, qu’est-ce qui vous plaît le plus dans votre 911 ?

De mon essai routier, j’ai eu l’impression que la M3 S65 était le meilleur moteur (plus de pétillement, plus de régimes plus doux / plus élevés) et que l’E90 avait une meilleure réponse au virage et à l’avant. La 911 était super facile à pousser dans le sous-virage.

Best,
Mike

No but I did go to a 991.1S and was underwhelmed. While the car is great, its too great and just did everything so well I felt like I was never actually driving it. 997.2S would be a more comparable choice and I think they're probably the best driving modern 911s.

EnVe46 wrote

No but I did go to a 991.1S and was underwhelmed. While the car is great, its too great and just did everything so well I felt like I was never actually driving it. 997.2S would be a more comparable choice and I think they're probably the best driving modern 911s.

Did you end up going back to the M3 from the 991?

Did you learn how to drive to the 911's strengths? I've been thinking that some of the turn-in laziness and power-on understeer I felt in the 997 might need driving style adaptations...

414bhp wrote

Did you end up going back to the M3 from the 991?

Did you learn how to drive to the 911's strengths? I've been thinking that some of the turn-in laziness and power-on understeer I felt in the 997 might need driving style adaptations...

I had a 69 Camaro 427 in between the 911 and M3, but yes, I did come back to the M3.

I wouldn't go off your experience at it sounds like that 997 wasn't up to spec. The 997.2S I drove was spot on, much more engaging than the 991.1S I bought. I think this has to do with hydraulic steering than anything, also being stick. PDK in the 991.1 I think is partly why I didn't enjoy it. Handling was fantastic and like I said, so good I couldn't push the car to its limits, it was far better than I was, especially since I wasn't on a track where it was safe to push it. That said, I feel I can push the M3 closer to where Im controlling it rather than the car itself. That made it not as fun for me. So, maybe its Im not a good enough driver for the 991.1 and that's ok for me to admit but also why its not the right car for me. Ultimately, I almost bought a 997 GT3 which I think is the sweet spot for 911s, for me. And boy do I wish I did cause Id be in a solid financial spot.

EnVe46 Yes! I am a sucker for the 997 GT3 also! (Test drive here.) That GT3 truly delivers on the involvement, sound and engine performance, well beyond what the E90/E92 M3 give.

414bhp wrote

Hi all,

Last year I was lusting after a 997.2 911 Carrera S and considering trading my E90 M3 for one.The drive did not go at all as I was expecting! Upon arrival I found the 997.2 C2S to be poorly kept -- severely weathered and worn. Even in motion, it wasn't the transcendent experience I expected. The test drive broke me of my 997.2 lust, though I am still trying to figure out how much of the letdown was particular to this car.

Have any of you come from or gone to 997.2 C2S's? If so, what do you like better about your 911s?

From my test drive, I felt like the M3 S65 was the better engine (more fizz, plus smoother/higher revving) and that the E90 had better turn-in and front end response. The 911 was super easy to push into understeer.

Just passing through these forums to sell my old winter wheels and was curious what everyone's posting about these days. I went from a 2011 e92 M3, manual with comp package to a 2007 997 turbo. However, in 2015 I drove both a 2005 997 Carrera and a 2008 997 Carrera S. The car I was driving in early 2015 was a 2012 Mustang GT with some mild suspension work.

Like you, I had a massive crush on the 997 cars. I was beside myself with excitement with even the prospect of getting a 911, much less a 997 (my favorite gen 911, overall). The 05 I drove was complete trash. Every interior panel rattled. But even without the rattling, I wasn't blown away. A month or so later, I drove the S, which was in excellent shape. It also didn't do much for me. Other than the brake pedal feel, I preferred the 987 Boxster (non-S) I drove 7-8 yrs earlier. I later drove the e92 M3 that I eventually bought. Everything just felt right to me. It gave me the experience that I expected from a BMW. Great balance in pretty much all categories and the S65 was/is a special engine. Zero regrets on moving to the M3 over the Carreras I drove.

Here's the thing though, starting with the 996 and expanding further with the 997, Porsche has a lot of submodels with the 911. And they are designed to give a different experience, depending on your wants and wallet size. The Turbo drives a fair amount differently than the Carreras. The steering and suspension are substantially stiffer. The sense of acceleration is a lot more intense, particularly in overboost with Sport mode. A Turbo may not be something you're interested in, but give another submodel--like a GTS-- a shot. And make sure it's been taken care of as well.

I think the only real E9x M3 replacement from Porsche has to be a GT-car.

If rear seats aren’t a must, the cayman or boxters are EXCELLENT

14_deltaM3 wrote

If rear seats aren’t a must, the cayman or boxters are EXCELLENT

I love the way the Boxsters and Caymans turn, but I haven't fallen in love with their oomph. Right now, I am still immature enough to like an engine that can kick the rear loose.

Here was my drive of the 2009 Cayman.

And my drive of the 718 GTS.

414bhp wrote

I love the way the Boxsters and Caymans turn, but I haven't fallen in love with their oomph. Right now, I am still immature enough to like an engine that can kick the rear loose.

Here was my drive of the 2009 Cayman.

And my drive of the 718 GTS.

With you completely - it’s why I still have my M3.

Though it’s perhaps less desirable driving-wise over a 997.2s, I want to take a look at an early 991 with the 7 speed manual and NA 6. I’m curious how it drives compared to the M3.

Based on your own column, figure out how to get into a 997.1 gt3.

akkando wrote

Based on your own column, figure out how to get into a 997.1 gt3.

Thanks for the read!

Yeah, that is the new dream! Too bad I missed the boat when they were "cheap" at $80k last year...

Temporary remedy: Every time I think about a GT3, I rev my engine up to 8400rpm and slam into the next gear. By the time I get off the next ramp, I've forgotten about it.

kyrix1st wrote

Temporary remedy: Every time I think about a GT3, I rev my engine up to 8400rpm and slam into the next gear. By the time I get off the next ramp, I've forgotten about it.

The M3's engine really does stand up well to the 997 GT3's!

AdM1nsarEas$ wrote

Had a 997.1S before it died to bore scoring.

The 997 generation is a much better sports car vs. the m3 (i'ts actually a "real" sports car vs. a modified normal car). With the 911 you really need to lean into the slow in fast out mantra.

I would give up the e9x M in a heartbeat for a 997.2S if it wasn't 2-3x the price.

It’s funny that IMS bearings are the focal point for most in the community, though bore scoring is (to me) the far more concerning problem.

It unfortunately takes any 997.1 off my list (short of turbos or GTs).

14_deltaM3 wrote

It’s funny that IMS bearings are the focal point for most in the community, though bore scoring is (to me) the far more concerning problem.

It unfortunately takes any 997.1 off my list (short of turbos or GTs).

Yea, at least the IMS has an easy upgrade path.

14_deltaM3 wrote

414bhp wrote

I love the way the Boxsters and Caymans turn, but I haven't fallen in love with their oomph. Right now, I am still immature enough to like an engine that can kick the rear loose.

Here was my drive of the 2009 Cayman.

And my drive of the 718 GTS.

With you completely - it’s why I still have my M3.

Though it’s perhaps less desirable driving-wise over a 997.2s, I want to take a look at an early 991 with the 7 speed manual and NA 6. I’m curious how it drives compared to the M3.

If you are in the GTA I might be able to help make this possible for you. PM me.

414bhp wrote

Hi all,

Last year I was lusting after a 997.2 911 Carrera S and considering trading my E90 M3 for one. After months of looking, one showed up at my local Carmax, so I booked it for a test drive. (I was thinking I'd snag a 911 with the famed Carmax extended warranty!)

The drive did not go at all as I was expecting! Upon arrival I found the 997.2 C2S to be poorly kept -- severely weathered and worn. Even in motion, it wasn't the transcendent experience I expected. The test drive broke me of my 997.2 lust, though I am still trying to figure out how much of the letdown was particular to this car.

(Here is my blog post with full drive details.)

Have any of you come from or gone to 997.2 C2S's? If so, what do you like better about your 911s?

From my test drive, I felt like the M3 S65 was the better engine (more fizz, plus smoother/higher revving) and that the E90 had better turn-in and front end response. The 911 was super easy to push into understeer.

Best,
Mike

These questions hit very close to home for me.

I recently sold my E90 comp for a manual C4S 997.2. The 911 is in excellent mechanical and cosmetic condition, and I still feel it is not an upgrade when compared to an E9X M.

The biggest letdown for me is the engine. It lacks any "pizzaz" or sizzle or character even when you really push it and keep it on boil. It feels entirely unfazed and smooth, but not in a way that makes it fun or exciting. The gearbox and brakes are amazing, definite upgrades, but the engine has a slight delay in the throttle (emissions) maybe or DBW I am not an expert and could be wrong on these details but point being it just feels a little lazy.

When it comes to downshifting, blipping throttle, rev matching the entire car feels uninspiring.

Uninspiring is the word I would use because the chassis, brakes, and the way the car drives is like nothing else. Hands down the 911 handles way better and dynamically superior but the engine just kills it for me.

This is not to say the E9x M is bad in any of these metrics but clearly on a different playing field as the 911 rotates and can take corners at higher speeds for sure. Lower weight, engine in the back is the way to go ideally.

Long story short, I sold my 911 and I am in the process of buying another E9X and this time will not be selling it unless it is a gt3. It doesn't help my case that my E90 M had many high end best of breed mods so a well modded E9x compared to a stock 997.2 is not a fair fight for the Porsche, IMO.

The 911 is amazing and I can see why some people would prefer it, as its a way better sports car, but for me not a better car overall.

neilum wrote

These questions hit very close to home for me.

I recently sold my E90 comp for a manual C4S 997.2. The 911 is in excellent mechanical and cosmetic condition, and I still feel it is not an upgrade when compared to an E9X M.

The biggest letdown for me is the engine. It lacks any "pizzaz" or sizzle or character even when you really push it and keep it on boil. It feels entirely unfazed and smooth, but not in a way that makes it fun or exciting. The gearbox and brakes are amazing, definite upgrades, but the engine has a slight delay in the throttle (emissions) maybe or DBW I am not an expert and could be wrong on these details but point being it just feels a little lazy.

When it comes to downshifting, blipping throttle, rev matching the entire car feels uninspiring.

Uninspiring is the word I would use because the chassis, brakes, and the way the car drives is like nothing else. Hands down the 911 handles way better and dynamically superior but the engine just kills it for me.

This is not to say the E9x M is bad in any of these metrics but clearly on a different playing field as the 911 rotates and can take corners at higher speeds for sure. Lower weight, engine in the back is the way to go ideally.

Long story short, I sold my 911 and I am in the process of buying another E9X and this time will not be selling it unless it is a gt3. It doesn't help my case that my E90 M had many high end best of breed mods so a well modded E9x compared to a stock 997.2 is not a fair fight for the Porsche, IMO.

The 911 is amazing and I can see why some people would prefer it, as its a way better sports car, but for me not a better car overall.

What you are saying is very interesting to some, like me, who are tempted to sell.

While I have yet to drive a 991, which I am holding out a ton of optimism for, what you’re describing is the catch 22 of 911s.

They are a dedicated sports car platform, which has obvious handling and subjective feel advantages over the M3 platform. However, that advantage doesn’t carry into engines, unless you go for turbo models (for the power, losing out on experience and specialness) or GT3s, both of which are way more money. On top, the GT3 gives up the daily drive ability altogether.

It’s all this consternation that leads one (eg. Me) to conclude just how special a combination the M3 is.

14_deltaM3 wrote

What you are saying is very interesting to some, like me, who are tempted to sell.

While I have yet to drive a 991, which I am holding out a ton of optimism for, what you’re describing is the catch 22 of 911s.

They are a dedicated sports car platform, which has obvious handling and subjective feel advantages over the M3 platform. However, that advantage doesn’t carry into engines, unless you go for turbo models (for the power, losing out on experience and specialness) or GT3s, both of which are way more money. On top, the GT3 gives up the daily drive ability altogether.

It’s all this consternation that leads one (eg. Me) to conclude just how special a combination the M3 is.

Are you considering a 991.1 or 991.2? If I recall correctly, the 991.1 shares an engine with the first-generation Cayman GT4. When I drove the GT4 back-to-back with my E90 M3, the GT4's engine did not impress.

Regarding the GT3 as a daily, that appears to be a personal thing. For the 997.1 GT3, it mainly seemed to be the stiff clutch and shifter which would impede daily driving. For the 991.1 GT3, it seemed like you could daily it if you didn't mind a noisy cabin and rocks pinging off the wheel wells everywhere you went.

"When I drove the GT4 back-to-back with my E90 M3, the GT4's engine did not impress."

Absolutely agree with this.