Staggered vs. square

Iyzmi wrote

How do you guys differentiate between high vs low quality wheels? Do you just lump all replica and not-top-dollar brand wheels in the same "crap" category regardless of anything or are there good ones and bad ones?

A quick search revealed multiple people post about bent OEM ZCP wheels, and people talking about how they are "known to be really soft." I'm not so sure the people who have complained of bent/cracked AG wheels would have fared any better with OEM. If strength is the main concern, forged is the answer.

Avante Garde wheels are low pressure cast same as OEM, they pass JWL and VIA standards, and even weigh within 1lb of OEM. AG is also not some no-name eBay China garbage brand. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand what exactly I should be afraid of here...

You are on the right track. My wheels are VMR wheels and I generally wouldn't purchase VMR wheels unless they were flow-formed like Forgestar wheels, which the VMR 810s are.

Iyzmi wrote

How do you guys differentiate between high vs low quality wheels? Do you just lump all replica and not-top-dollar brand wheels in the same "crap" category regardless of anything or are there good ones and bad ones?

A quick search revealed multiple people post about bent OEM ZCP wheels, and people talking about how they are "known to be really soft." I'm not so sure the people who have complained of bent/cracked AG wheels would have fared any better with OEM. If strength is the main concern, forged is the answer.

Avante Garde wheels are low pressure cast same as OEM, they pass JWL and VIA standards, and even weigh within 1lb of OEM. AG is also not some no-name eBay China garbage brand. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand what exactly I should be afraid of here...

High-level:
Construction method (fully cast vs. flow formed / rotary forged vs. fully forged) is the quickest and easiest way to tell. Like the other poster mentioned, I'd trust a flow formed VMR wheel more than a regular cast VMR wheel.

Smaller details, within same construction type:
My experiences have been mixed - I've had Alufelgen flow formed wheels bend hours after leaving a shop driving on normal roads. I've had fully forged wheels get minor bends. I've had my cast OEM ZCP wheels take lots of beatings and get only minor bends after a while.

Given that experience, I think even within the same manufacturing method there are varying levels of strength and quality.

For example:

• I'd trust a proven forged brand such as Volk/BBS over a random no-name forged wheel company with bling designs (there seems to be a lot now, and some seem to come and disappear after a couple of years!)
• I've had heavy cast BBS CH wheels, and they never bent even on winter pothole covered roads in Boston. Before that I tried ASA's lighter cast (and cheap) wheels - they bent horrendously on a bridge expansion joint. Complete trash.
• I'd trust a heavy, OEM cast wheel more than a no-name or replica brand cast wheel
• Flow formed can be a gamble
• My opinion is that it's difficult to make a strong and light wheel cheaply. So if the price is very low for a flow formed wheel, it's an imperfect indicator that it may be a crap flow formed wheel. (Alufelgen experience)

Apex wheels are light, relatively inexpensive, and street and track price. I have been using them for about 10 years on my E36M3 and 8 years on
My E90M3, all street driven.

I am running EC7’s 18x9.5 square fitment with RE71 275/35 tires. Should I run a spacer on the rears? If so what size. This setup is for track use. Thanks.
Chet

Nothing says you can’t run a staggered tire setup on square wheels (or a square tire setup on staggered wheels). Lots of ways to skin this cat. The important thing is getting that wide wheel up front, 9.5-10.5 with the tire of your choice depending on what you want from the car. So many more choices in the rear but up front you have to stick to something under 26” tall if you go wider than stock or you start hitting stuff. for instance, 275/35 front and 275/40 rear is a nice stagger that takes advantage of the extra room for a bigger tire in back, if you decide you want more rear grip but are otherwise happy with square wheels

Richbot wrote

Nothing says you can’t run a staggered tire setup on square wheels (or a square tire setup on staggered wheels). Lots of ways to skin this cat. The important thing is getting that wide wheel up front, 9.5-10.5 with the tire of your choice depending on what you want from the car. So many more choices in the rear but up front you have to stick to something under 26” tall if you go wider than stock or you start hitting stuff

This...

I am 100% committed to 17’s for track/fun tires but as soon as a top tire all-rounder summer tire is available in 295/30-18 I’m going back to 18’s with square 10.5’s

Richbot wrote

I am 100% committed to 17’s for track/fun tires but as soon as a top tire all-rounder summer tire is available in 295/30-18 I’m going back to 18’s with square 10.5’s

Pilot Sport Cup2?

Sortof flunks the all round part of that especially at $450. But I was tempted

Richbot wrote

Sortof flunks the all round part of that especially at $450. But I was tempted

Why you say that? I would argue it's one of the best all-around Tires.

It’s molded at low depth to begin with and is lousy in real rain or cold, has lousy puncture resistance and wears too fast to retain hydroplane resistance for more than a coupe months of street driving. But otherwise it’s a fine street tire they are truly a treaded r-compound

Edit: derp I see now I was not clear I run 17’s on the street right now and would stick with them for track tires no matter what, tons of great track tires in 17’s for these cars, but if ps4s or comparable comes in 295/30 eventually I’m going back to 18’s

That’s my favorite tire size for this car because short and wide and fits up front


Edit 2 stop tempting me with the psc2. Stop it.

Richbot wrote

It’s molded at low depth to begin with and is lousy in real rain or cold, has lousy puncture resistance and wears too fast to retain hydroplane resistance for more than a coupe months of street driving. But otherwise it’s a fine street tire they are truly a treaded r-compound

Edit: derp I see now I was not clear I run 17’s on the street right now and would stick with them for track tires no matter what, tons of great track tires in 17’s for these cars, but if ps4s or comparable comes in 295/30 eventually I’m going back to 18’s

That’s my favorite tire size for this car because short and wide and fits up front


Edit 2 stop tempting me with the psc2. Stop it.

I tried them for the first time this year based on a few friends proclaiming their excellent dual-purpose attributes. I don't daily my car but I do drive it to the track and a bit on the street. I was looking for a tire that could get me to and from, handle a track day, and not be annoying on the street. They have delivered.

I have three track days on them and the rears are wearing amazingly. Only about 1/32 of wear. The front outer edges are destroyed while the inner tread has plenty of life. I am now experimenting with some setup changes to address that issue. I'm already at -3.3 camber which should be more than sufficient. Next step is stiffening the front sway bar and I will install the SPL links to correct roll center, bump steer, etc. Hopefully I get it figured out. If so, I think I can get a ton of track days out of these things. Despite their high initial price, they may turn out to be a decent value - plus I don't need to mess around with multiple sets of wheels. That being said, they have the best grip when new and fall off with heat cycles. Grip is still relatively solid after 3 track days, it just isn't at the level they started (pretty normal I guess).

They aren't a super soft tire that wears rapidly. It is proving to be the opposite. They are wearing well. Now if you are comparing wear to a true street tire, I would say they will wear more quickly. However, I would expect to destroy most street tires on the track - plus they suck in that application. As far as rain... I don't care because I live in SoCal.

Stahp

slicer wrote

That being said, they have the best grip when new and fall off with heat cycles. Grip is still relatively solid after 3 track days, it just isn't at the level they started (pretty normal I guess).

They fall off really quick from their peak grip level, but then go down to let's say 80% of that and maintain it for a while

In the US that tire is just too damn expensive

What about Toyo RA1 for a treaded R compound? It’s been around for many years.

I love the look of the ZCP wheels but man where they heavy, and 19" wheels really could limit your size options when it came to diameter/rubbing issues. If I had a supercharged M3, I'd roll with 18x10 fronts/18x11 rears.

That's why I went with the VMR V810 in 19x10 and 19x11. More aggressive offset and quite a bit lighter.

Dave07997S wrote

That's why I went with the VMR V810 in 19x10 and 19x11. More aggressive offset and quite a bit lighter.

Is ~1lb really quite a bit lighter?

ZCP:
19x9 25.5lb
19x10 26.8lb

V810:
19x10 ET25 - 24.8lbs
19x11 ET35 - 25.4lbs

The smart move for weight dropping at a reasonable price is to run Apex 18s — might lose 5 lbs a wheel.

Tires can vary by 5 lbs in a given size in this size range. Michelin and Conti are among the lightest.

Honestly, if you're looking to daily drive your car, then I would go with a squared 275 setup and call it a day. You can rotate your tires this way and get a bit more life out of them.

MFL wrote

Honestly, if you're looking to daily drive your car, then I would go with a squared 275 setup and call it a day. You can rotate your tires this way and get a bit more life out of them.

I have struggled mightily against this but this is where I'm landing too. If you're running a good amount of front camber rotation sure is handy to keep the tires wearing happily.

One way to get around the grip you're "leaving on the table" in the rear is a small 5-10mm spacer, if you feel like the rear-end can't take all the power you'd like to give on corner-exit with a 275 or 285 square setup for instance, adding some track width can help make up some of the difference.

Iyzmi wrote

Is ~1lb really quite a bit lighter?

ZCP:
19x9 25.5lb
19x10 26.8lb

V810:
19x10 ET25 - 24.8lbs
19x11 ET35 - 25.4lbs

It is quite a bit lighter when you consider what you are getting. You got a wheel that has a more aggressive offset, 1" wider and it facilitated the support of a larger tire without the weight penalty that this normally is associated with doing this. So basically I got a wider wheel with more tire without having a major weight penalty, I also love the look of these wheels on the car.

The car was transformed with this, I can't stress this enough. You go with a 9.5-10" wide front with a 275 tire up front and the amount of mechanical grip is amazing. The same goes for the rear with a 11" wide and 295 outback.