call me an automatic skeptic...

After neglecting watches for over 70 years, I had an urge and bought a Heritor Ashford, an inexpensive but very legible and handsome sort of minimalist automatic. The damned thing ran at +25 seconds per day - within spec but outside of my criteria for a useful timepiece. Heritor were kind enough to send me a replacement and I'm quite happy with it.

To wit, it averages +1.63 seconds per day with a standard deviation of 3.89 seconds and it is hackable. So it is not only pretty accurate - although the standard deviation is twice that allowed for COSC - but it is short work to set it in the morning. 95% of the time it is within 3 seconds of the true time, mostly ahead.

But the problem is the originally purchased watch. I tried to get it regulated and it is now running a very consistent - 12 seconds. Pretty useless. And it wasn't easy to find someone to do it. I won't purchase another automatic watch unless it is COSC. The ubiquitous online assurances that you can always get it regulated just aren't true, at least here in southern Ontario with anything short of a premium brand.

I have Tudors that are running +/- 10 seconds a month that are several years old and beat on daily. You get what you pay for.

It depends on to my experience . I have bought several Seiko modded watches with the NH35 Seiko Movement (to many it's just an average movement ) but it runs within COSC and is just as accurate as ETA 2836 movement watches if not better .
However, same NH35 movement in a different manufacturer can run as fast as 4 minutes per week or in a different manufacturer slow 1 minute per week

cozye wrote

I have Tudors that are running +/- 10 seconds a month that are several years old and beat on daily. You get what you pay for.

I could pick up this beauty from Tudor for $3000. On the other hand I could get much the same look and quality in a Hamilton quartz for 25% of that.

If your mindset is that a Hamilton quartz is the same quality as a Tudor, Omega, Rolex, GO, IWC, Grand Seiko, etc.. etc.. then you are probably not the target audience for those types of time pieces. If your requirement is to have a certain look, a watch is more of a fashion accessory, etc.. then buy all means by what looks best to you. There is much more to appreciate about horology than the dial and strap. There are an abundance of inexpensive watches that are durable and will keep accurate time.

I have a Rolex GMT II and it gains about a minute a week. Not a deal breaker but certainly not as accurate as any battery powered watch. I can live with the time discrepancy. That said, I didn't buy my GMT strictly as an ultra accurate time piece. I have no fear wearing my watch in water (ocean or pool) and I simply love an automatic movement.

RobotDoctor wrote

I have a Rolex GMT II and it gains about a minute a week. Not a deal breaker but certainly not as accurate as any battery powered watch. I can live with the time discrepancy. That said, I didn't buy my GMT strictly as an ultra accurate time piece. I have no fear wearing my watch in water (ocean or pool) and I simply love an automatic movement.

I could live with my Heritor gaining a minute a week. My sole concern here is that entry level automatics can be much worse than this, and often are. I am not closing the door to more expensive automatics, just saying that I would insist on COSC. Here is a gorgeous COSC watch which is only $1700 Canadian which I would prefer to any Rolex:

In today's world it really doesn't matter...buy what you like. Watches are relegated to jewelry status now, I could care less about movements.

I have one of each, my Cartier Tank is quartz and my Rolex DJ is mechanical. I just wear whichever I feel like in the moment.

BimmerBoomer wrote

My sole concern here is that entry level automatics can be much worse than this, and often are.

Have you heard of seiko?
King of entry level automatics and definately not as bad as what you're experiencing. Although I'm sure they also produced samples that were not so good, considering the sheer amount of watches they make.
But all mechanical seiko's can be regulated

That said, I have never heard of 'Heritor '. Sounds like a cheap fashion brand, not a serious watch company.
Do you know what kind of movement it has?
You say that it wasn't easy to find someone to get it regulated, but I think pretty much any jeweler can do that. the only thing you need is a timegrapher (which can be had nowadays for sub $200) and a caseback opener.
For a jeweler its a pretty basic thing to do.

RobotDoctor wrote

I have a Rolex GMT II and it gains about a minute a week. Not a deal breaker but certainly not as accurate as any battery powered watch. I can live with the time discrepancy. That said, I didn't buy my GMT strictly as an ultra accurate time piece. I have no fear wearing my watch in water (ocean or pool) and I simply love an automatic movement.

Spec on that should be +/- 2 seconds a day. It needs servicing. Something very wrong with a Rolex gaining a minute a week.

GuidoK wrote

That said, I have never heard of 'Heritor '. Sounds like a cheap fashion brand, not a serious watch company.
Do you know what kind of movement it has?

It’s a fashion watch brand that mostly uses the base spec Chinese auto movements. So yeah there’s no expectation of any sort of timing regulation.

Sub-$500 I’d only recommend Seiko.

nunzo wrote

It’s a fashion watch brand that mostly uses the base spec Chinese auto movements. So yeah there’s no expectation of any sort of timing regulation.

Sub-$500 I’d only recommend Seiko.

But I bought this watch because I liked it - and the second copy runs reasonably accurately.

First guess is that such a watch probably contains a Seiko, miyota or a chinese eta clone (seagull etc) movement.
That should be able to run +/- 8 sec/day when regulated in multiple positions...
Biggest risk is that the movement was placed in the casing in a very dirty factory.

Edit: I found the watch, it's a Heritor Ashton, not Ashford.
https://heritorwatches.com/products/herhs1400?variant=39455344099411

It has a "Jeweled 2560 Automatic Movement". There's no picture of the movement, the picture of the caseback is obscured by the strap... why o why.
Although 21600bph, I doubt it's a seiko (or similar) movement.
They do sell automatics with Seiko and Miyota movements, but they specifically mention that then in the description.
Hmmmmm...

I can't find anything on this movement, except some forumtopics that it's a chinese made movement. But who's the manufacturer? pics and data of the movement?
usually that's not a good sign....

If you're in the market for a cheap automatic (sub 500) indeed go for seiko, or on aliexpress there are also some brands with really good prices selling automatics with seiko nh35 movements. Brands like 'Pagani Design' often make watches in pretty nice designs with a NH35 movement and sapphire crystal for under $150, often even under $100.
They have their own designs but also Rolex/AP/Omega/etc inspired designs if you're into that (they are not fakes as they don't carry the brand name, but are classified as 'hommage').
Seiko NH35 is the same as Seiko 4r35 (or 4r36 with DD) if you need that as a reference. (it has both hand winding and hacking seconds)

GuidoK wrote

First guess is that such a watch probably contains a Seiko, miyota or a chinese eta clone (seagull etc) movement.
That should be able to run +/- 8 sec/day when regulated in multiple positions...
Biggest risk is that the movement was placed in the casing in a very dirty factory.

Edit: I found the watch, it's a Heritor Ashton, not Ashford.
https://heritorwatches.com/products/herhs1400?variant=39455344099411

It has a "Jeweled 2560 Automatic Movement". There's no picture of the movement, the picture of the caseback is obscured by the strap... why o why.
Although 21600bph, I doubt it's a seiko (or similar) movement.
They do sell automatics with Seiko and Miyota movements, but they specifically mention that then in the description.
Hmmmmm...

I can't find anything on this movement, except some forumtopics that it's a chinese made movement. But who's the manufacturer? pics and data of the movement?
usually that's not a good sign....

If you're in the market for a cheap automatic (sub 500) indeed go for seiko, or on aliexpress there are also some brands with really good prices selling automatics with seiko nh35 movements. Brands like 'Pagani Design' often make watches in pretty nice designs with a NH35 movement and sapphire crystal for under $150, often even under $100.
They have their own designs but also Rolex/AP/Omega/etc inspired designs if you're into that (they are not fakes as they don't carry the brand name, but are classified as 'hommage').
Seiko NH35 is the same as Seiko 4r35 (or 4r36 with DD) if you need that as a reference. (it has both hand winding and hacking seconds)

Ashford, Ashton - Kent, Cornwall. Since the factory immediately replaced the watch when I complained my feeling is that they were aware of a bad batch. Having said that the original watch once regulated now runs at -8 seconds quite reliably when I wear it, not quite so well on a cheap winder (around -10 to -12). And the replacement runs as well as any inexpensive automatic is likely to, often going 2 or 3 days with no error. The standard deviation is a little vexing - it can also run 8 to 10 seconds fast for 2 or 3 days.

Heritor's parent company makes some attractive designs under the Reign name with NH35, NH38 etc. movements. I'm aware of the Pagani Designs and Seiko stuff. But I've had my fill of inexpensive automatics, even though I really like this watch and wear it every day.

I know this is the subforum and everyone here is a WIS, but I'm glad that I didn't fall into this rabbithole/money pit. I appreciate a good-looking watch, but it's ridiculous that the more expensive it is /= the more accurate, probably the opposite is true when a $5 digital one keeps time better. So, that doesn't really jive for me esp when my Oris automatic crapped out on me and they wanted $$$ for a repair....what, for a stupid watch, have to do maintenance? This is not a car. Anyway, this hobby isn't for me as I prefer stuff being more functional and it's really jewelry like someone else said.

BimmerBoomer wrote

Heritor's parent company makes some attractive designs under the Reign name with NH35, NH38 etc. movements. I'm aware of the Pagani Designs and Seiko stuff. But I've had my fill of inexpensive automatics, even though I really like this watch and wear it every day.

Never heard of Reign watches also, sounds again like a fashion brand like Heritor.
If I look at their website I see the same stuff as heritor. Lots of skeletonized no name chinesium movements and when it's a Seiko NH3x or Miyota movement it's seperately advertised, just like on the Heritor site.
I just think it's funny you base your opinion on inexpensive automatics on a no name china movement and not on tried&tested seiko or miyota automatic movements that can even be found in watches well under $100

TBH I wouldn't spend any more than ~$300 or so on a fashion brand watch if it has a seiko or miyota movement. A bit more maybe if it has a sellita eta clone. And leave no name chinese movements in the store alltogheter, unless you're exactly sure which movement you're getting (but then it wouldn't be a no name movement...) and are familiar with it's technical implementations.

As it is I ended up with a watch I really like and a spare for less than $125 U.S.. I have no settled opinion as to whether this Chinese movement is better or worse than a Miyota or Seiko - but I do suspect that there isn't much in it either way. I am definitely of the opinion that more than one or two automatic watches makes little sense: you need to wear them to keep them working. If I bought another one it would be COSC but that is because I don't expect to get lucky again.

BimmerBoomer wrote

I am definitely of the opinion that more than one or two automatic watches makes little sense: you need to wear them to keep them working.

Most automatics also have manual winding. So you can by choice either wear them as an automatic or wear them as a manual wind.

If you want none of those limitations, buy quartz.

GuidoK wrote

If you want none of those limitations, buy quartz.

Quartz or Eco-Drive: you only have to put the Citizens in the window.

cozye wrote

Spec on that should be +/- 2 seconds a day. It needs servicing. Something very wrong with a Rolex gaining a minute a week.

I had it serviced a couple years ago. I'll double check and see what it really is. I might be exaggerating the time a bit.

I have never heard of a Heritor before. Looks nice but not quite in the same realm of Rolex. Not that I'm wanting to sell mine but it has appreciated quite a bit.

RobotDoctor wrote

I have never heard of a Heritor before. Looks nice but not quite in the same realm of Rolex. Not that I'm wanting to sell mine but it has appreciated quite a bit.

The watches I own are an expense not an investment. In truth I don't think anyone - other than the owner or an enthusiast - looks at these things that closely. If they notice a Rolex it isn't because of its aesthetic superiority. All of my watches are fashion watches, part of an overall look. I own two Eco-Drive watches precisely because they combine rose gold, navy and brown as I wear a lot of dark indigo and navy. The job of the watch is more to disappear than stand out. And as to fashion - when you're over 70 there isn't much you can do.