Porsche is realigning itself: "Leaner, faster and even more desirable"

XutvJet wrote

It was inevitable I guess. People think they want more and more power and most don't understand the impact that has on daily driving and flogging the car. —- And the gas mileage argument doesn't apply either. When driven like an NA motor, turbo motors do not get significantly better mpgs.

Smaller capacity with turbocharging came down to emissions to meet increasingly strict regulations a lot of the time. Power and torque if anything were a side benefit.

baron95 wrote

That is a move in the right direction. I refuse to buy a vehicle in 2026 that requires me to fish in my pocket for a key to drive the damn thing.

I prefer no key at all. I often just used my apple watch on the M2, even though I have to contort my wrist to make the stupid narrowband NFC reader in the car detect the watch. I dislike keys that much.

This business of making cars quirky for the sake of the geriatric crowd is numbered. BMW has shown us that cars can be desirable and engaging, even with auto transmissions keyless entry/start and giant screens. But even they could not resist the ridiculous removing of the cupholders on the CS cars.

You did not need to take your key out unless you didn’t pay for comfort access. I think some people cheap out on that but most if not all 911s have that now. The twist key is just that, you twist instead of push a button.

I will echo things went downhill when they went all turbo in 2016. I know they sort of had to but I just would never consider a sports car with a dull turbo charged motor. Well maybe Alfa's little 1.7 litre fire cracker but the 911 engines are just emotionless.

RPM33 wrote

There is a different vibe among the higher end car companies dealerships. They are probably sizing you to see if you are worth their time. Bringing a little kid with you probably doesn’t help your cause.

This is one of the problems. Guys on this board who make a million a year and the sales person making $150K wants to size you up and act like you can't afford to buy from them.

I have a few friends who like most of us are very successful and have been treated like they could not afford the cars when in reality one of my friend exited his company for 100Mil.

He ended up getting two 911 Turbo S cars one a 24' and the other a 25' just last year. He got them from another dealer out of state who knew who he was.

The local sales guy "sized him up" but incorrectly.

MJBO wrote

Smaller capacity with turbocharging came down to emissions to meet increasingly strict regulations a lot of the time. Power and torque if anything were a side benefit.

I don't disagree. The whole emissions thing is such a farce when it comes to turbos. Yes, turbos make less emissions when out of boost, but when driven like a normal car, you're almost always in some sort of boost except when cruising with minimal load. Otherwise, under some level of boost means more fuel which results in more emissions and that 2.5 liter turbo motor is emitting like it was a 4.0 liter motor.

A Ford 3.5 Ecoboost V6 has more emissions than the Ford 7.3 V8 Godzilla when under full throttle compared to the 7.3 under full throttle, LOL.

Alfisti wrote

I will echo things went downhill when they went all turbo in 2016. I know they sort of had to but I just would never consider a sports car with a dull turbo charged motor. Well maybe Alfa's little 1.7 litre fire cracker but the 911 engines are just emotionless.

"Dull" is a great way to describe how late model turbos behave when driven in most daily situations. In hard driving, they're not bad and can sound pretty good assuming it's an inline 6 with a single turbo

XutvJet wrote

I don't disagree. The whole emissions thing is such a farce when it comes to turbos. Yes, turbos make less emissions when out of boost, but when driven like a normal car, you're almost always in some sort of boost except when cruising with minimal load. Otherwise, under some level of boost means more fuel which results in more emissions and that 2.5 liter turbo motor is emitting like it was a 4.0 liter motor.

A Ford 3.5 Ecoboost V6 has more emissions than the Ford 7.3 V8 Godzilla when under full throttle compared to the 7.3 under full throttle, LOL.

Yep, the amount of bogus around emissions when talking about turbos, hybrids, etc. is endless.

Emissions are a funny thing.

I was driving behind a 2025 Honda CR-V with the 1.5L turbo motor. The driver floored it and smoke (unburned fuel) was pouring out the tailpipe. I laughed. The driver is a family member and I know the car is running perfectly and has no CEL. Point is, driving like a maniac is not part of the Federal emissions test.

Turbocharging is about emissions. Smaller displacement in general means smaller and cheaper block, rods, crank, rings and pistons helping offset added cost from turbos.

A smaller turbo engine emitting like a big engine under some conditions is irrelevant if the big engine can’t pass emissions or fuel economy regs.

Turbo engines can deliver linear power if the car company wants to do it. Example is SPORT PLUS mode on my Cayenne S with 2.9TTV6. The 2.9TT has a lumpy torque curve but SPORT PLUS gives linear, controllable responsive power but also comes with crappy hanging gear changes especially on lift throttle.

Power linearity with a turbo motor is completely controllable by the car company via throttle opening (which has nearly nothing to do with pedal position), fuel injector duty cycle, boost level, valve timing and valve lift. The car companies simply don’t make their sauce that way.

I want SPORT PLUS power with NORMAL (comfort) shifting and suspension. This is 100% technically possible but Porsche doesn’t offer that set of features from the factory to the driver. The alternative is coding which isn’t my thing.

Alfisti wrote

I will echo things went downhill when they went all turbo in 2016. I know they sort of had to but I just would never consider a sports car with a dull turbo charged motor. Well maybe Alfa's little 1.7 litre fire cracker but the 911 engines are just emotionless.

Since we’re talkn Pcars I wont mention the 288 GTO lil 2.8 or F40 lil 2.9TT…..but id surely call these turbos two sports cars;)

But i jest i do luv N/A and my weeknd is all pure, but my daily is turbo and its OK and the replacement is likely a turbo as nearly all modern pcars outside the GT3 is but what can ya do, they are great cars for everyday use.

Alfisti wrote

I will echo things went downhill when they went all turbo in 2016. I know they sort of had to but I just would never consider a sports car with a dull turbo charged motor. Well maybe Alfa's little 1.7 litre fire cracker but the 911 engines are just emotionless.

Yes the 911s sound like a vacuum cleaner.

It’s all about 0-60 times these days and people that grew up with turbos telling you NA cars are slow because they don’t understand the throttle pedal and gearbox.

They aren’t slow. They are fun, especially with a manual gearbox. You get to be a part of the experience rather than going along for the ride. It’s a sensory experience of days gone by.

Alfisti wrote

I will echo things went downhill when they went all turbo in 2016. I know they sort of had to but I just would never consider a sports car with a dull turbo charged motor. Well maybe Alfa's little 1.7 litre fire cracker but the 911 engines are just emotionless.

The latest gen 911 GTS, that I spend a day on track instructing in, sounds great, performs incredibly and is anything but emotionless. I even think it is a much better engine than the screaming torqueless NA boxers.

Davil wrote

Yes the 911s sound like a vacuum cleaner.

It’s all about 0-60 times these days and people that grew up with turbos telling you NA cars are slow because they don’t understand the throttle pedal and gearbox.

They aren’t slow. They are fun, especially with a manual gearbox. You get to be a part of the experience rather than going along for the ride. It’s a sensory experience of days gone by.

It's weird, for a car guy i've never truly lusted for an exotic. I just don't see the point of all this power, where on earth can you use it on public roads? Then on track, if I was a true track rat, a Caterham or Radical or whatever is a much better device for a true track experience. I guess that brings us back to the GT3 and the whole drive it to the track and run it ethos.

I have 385 HP, I am at very illegal speeds WELL within 5 seconds, NFI what I do with more shove. Entering a freeway, if I go to the firewall in 2nd gear the car surges forward ferociously with a delightful noise, add 150HP and more torque and that experience is a) shorter and b) never quite sounds right because turbo charger.

I don't get it.

I guess what I am saying is, hand on my heart, if you offered me a 992 today with the 9A1 engine from 2009, i'd take that over the existing engine for the same money.

I thought it was well known watching the company change their future strategy to chase the EV market as priority and spend millions/billions on building out that infrastructure, paid that bill, took lots of capital out of their deep pocket, realized they made a bad strategic decision and are merely reversing to a new strategy. In the mean time it costs a lot to make a wrong corporate strategic decision and get back to the margins they are looking for.

I am not a very smart man (no shit says the peanut gallery!) but I was absolutely stunned to see legacy car makers go so fucking hard at BEV's when it was just so bloody clear to me that hybrids would rule the day int he short to medium term. They all got spooked by Tesla's market cap gains but they make fuck all money.

Other than the CHinese, which are a cheat code with a centrally controlled and subsidised labour force, no one can make decent money on BEV's. Toyota made 24 fucking billion dollars last year, mostly via hybrids.

M3Sleeper wrote

This is one of the problems. Guys on this board who make a million a year and the sales person making $150K wants to size you up and act like you can't afford to buy from them.


The local sales guy "sized him up" but incorrectly.

I don't understand why people will buy cars from a brand that allows this sort of garbage at their dealerships. Would instantly be a pass for me no matter how good the car actually is.

Maybe I don't understand the culture, but if I'm spending my hard earned money on their car then BS like this is the last thing I want to deal with.

Leucosticte wrote

I don't understand why people will buy cars from a brand that allows this sort of garbage at their dealerships. Would instantly be a pass for me no matter how good the car actually is.

Are you buying a car or getting in a relationship with the dealer? I'd hate to get a car I don't like just to get pampered at the dealership.

Alfisti wrote

I am not a very smart man (no shit says the peanut gallery!) but I was absolutely stunned to see legacy car makers go so fucking hard at BEV's when it was just so bloody clear to me that hybrids would rule the day int he short to medium term. They all got spooked by Tesla's market cap gains but they make fuck all money.

Other than the CHinese, which are a cheat code with a centrally controlled and subsidised labour force, no one can make decent money on BEV's. Toyota made 24 fucking billion dollars last year, mostly via hybrids.

Yeah, this is it. The cold, hard facts. Full EV's for performance cars is just a giant NO from me. Dont care how fast. Dont care about any of the sales pitches. EVs are for daily driving and running around. Sports cars, exotics and muscle cars are petrol-based in my world. Yeah, fine maybe a little hybrid "help" is fine but even that isnt as good as straight petrol.

Thats my 4.5 cents. Good for Porsche and others realizing that this mega-EV push is was just a bad idea.

Ohio Enthusiast wrote

Are you buying a car or getting in a relationship with the dealer? I'd hate to get a car I don't like just to get pampered at the dealership.

Isn't it a relationship though? If you have concerns post purchase like a warranty claim for example won't you be going back? I guess you could go to a different dealer since its from the manufacturer but if the dealerships impressions are negative enough to warrant that why are you buying from them?

It doesn't have to be that black and white IMO. I don't think the dealer needs to pamper you, they just need to cut the BS and treat the customer like they're buying an expensive car and not as an annoyance. Besides, there's tons of cars to choose from so I'm sure you'd find something else that you'd like. Why put up with, and reward their behavior by giving them money?

Just my two cents. Like I said, maybe I don't understand this stuff properly. It's not like I'm in the market for a brand new Porsche.

XutvJet wrote

Stupid. I'm certain a 2022 GT3 doesn't deliver 10X the fun that my ~$30K 2011 Cayman Base 6MT does. Not ever 3X the fun.

$300K, much less $150K for a sports car is just dumb. Unless of course you have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket, you're more about status and "numbers", and don't care much about driving a car as the impact on resale value of a GT3 with mileage is detrimental.

That’s where I was at. I was looking at almost an identical new 911 GTS as my 991.2 GTS and it was nearly $50k more sticker vs sticker. Dealer would offer a little over $100k so then I’m thinking is this car $100k better than my current car? I’m probably just going to put a stage 1 tune on my GTS. Not that it really needs more power lol.

Also very much enjoying my Z06. Despite dealing with Chevrolet mentality dealerships, it’s been an awesome car so far.

baron95 wrote

There is nothing wrong with Porsche, other than the fact that they spent a ton of money on electrification, only to realize that, beyond the trendy early adopters, no one wanted their EVs, which caused the residual values to collapse, burning a lot of buyers in the process.

The entire VW AG got burned by EVs and their stupid Cariad SW fiasco.

Mercedes is right there with them.

BMW did much better because they resisted/avoided the massive investment in EV only platforms with weird looks, except for a few test products (original i3, iX). They learned a lot, and chose the right path with the Neue Klasse - make EVs look just like the ICE vehicles (i.e. not weird) and only do massive investments when all the elements are in (800V architecture, dense cylindrical cells, 3rd gen motors, "superbrain" HW/SW zonal architecture).

BMW is *THE* winner among German brands in the EV transition.

If you go back before the pre-EV hype, most people on this forum pretty much wrote off BMW because they saw what Audi, Porsche and Mercedes were coming out with the eTron GT, Taycan and EQE/S and Tesla's were hot while BMW was tinkering with the then-pedestrian i4, people calling it a likely flop.

BMW absolutely knew what they were doing and are 100% the winners in not just EV planning and transition but their entire product line up. Even during COVID and post-COVID, BMW had the least disruptions to their production while the other Germans had severe shortages.

Today, everyone can criticize BMW all they want with their design and/or roadmap but they absolutely stand above Audi, Mercedes and even Porsche and it could not be any clearer.

Leucosticte wrote

I don't understand why people will buy cars from a brand that allows this sort of garbage at their dealerships. Would instantly be a pass for me no matter how good the car actually is.

Maybe I don't understand the culture, but if I'm spending my hard earned money on their car then BS like this is the last thing I want to deal with.

You need to understand how Porsche dealers operate. Here's a nice screenshot of a thread from rennlist. This is now happening with Mclaren Sennas, 488 Pistas, and a few other cars that you've seen "explode" in value from other actors in the Exotic space following the same model.


Here's the whole thread if you want a read:
https://rennlist.com/forums/992-gt3-and-gt2rs-forum/1506502-bat-and-gt3-prices-a-study-in-manipulation-by-chicagomarketing.html

x622 wrote

You need to understand how Porsche dealers operate. Here's a nice screenshot of a thread from rennlist. This is now happening with Mclaren Sennas, 488 Pistas, and a few other cars that you've seen "explode" in value from other actors in the Exotic space following the same model.


Here's the whole thread if you want a read:
https://rennlist.com/forums/992-gt3-and-gt2rs-forum/1506502-bat-and-gt3-prices-a-study-in-manipulation-by-chicagomarketing.html

Very interesting read and everything makes a lot more sense now.