Do Some Engines Match Better with DCT?

I am not trying to resolve the never ending DCT vs manual debate...we all know it depends on what one enjoys

however, it did occur to me recently as I miss manual, that perhaps some engines actually match up with a DCT better than a manual

the GT3 engine for example given the frenzied way it revs to 9000 rpm, perhaps a DCT that hang with that frenzy works better than a manual that interrupts it?

whereas for example an engine that is not all about the revs, like a big displacement engine that has good low end torque fits a manual better since its not a big deal if the revs fall between shifts and its not all about keeping a frenzy going

the R8 is my first DCT after a bunch of manuals, and while I miss manual, I do wonder if the DCT actually fits the frenzied maniac that the V10 is

curious about people,s experiences on this

S65 mates much better with a DCT

baege wrote

perhaps some engines actually match up with a DCT better than a manual

For performance, all engines match better with DCT.
For "experience", "engagement", and ludditeness, manual may appeal more to some.

DCT is way more expensive than MT or automatic, thus it can only be found in high-end performance cars. The rest get an automatic. Few leftovers get MTs, though frequently with software-limited torque.

YMMV,
a

More design and development work is spent on any automatics 100%.

Manuals seems to be "slap in whatever works and send it".

I dunno how you sit down for dinner with all those splinters in your arse from fence sitting for so long.

The DCT in my F87C was a fantastic piece of equipment that suited the car very well. I couldn't imagine that car with a manual as the DCT worked so well.

Alfisti wrote

I dunno how you sit down for dinner with all those splinters in your arse from fence sitting for so long.

Lets add more fun, I mean considerations for the OP.

Get an exotic with an F1 that blends the best of both other options.

I owned my 2016 M235 6MT with an MPE LSD and Stage 2 mods for several years. Awesome car and I love having a manual transmission; however, BMW's 6MT execution in the F series cars isn't great. It felt half-assed with the clutch feel and engagement, the rubbery shifter feel, erratic clutch bite point leaving in 1st, a difficult to manage smooth 1-2 shift, and the somewhat long gearing. The 6MT was pretty decent when driven in anger, but in daily driving, it could be somewhat annoying.

Once I got my Cayman 6MT, I started looking for OG M2s and decided I'd give the DCT a try. After owning the M2 for about 1.5 years, the DCT seems very well matched to the N55. It has perfect gearing and per my Draggy, my stock M2 is just as quick in the 1/4 mile (ET and MPH wise) as my Stage 2 M235 was. Talk about efficiency with the DCT or the lack there of with the 6MT. I really didn't think the M235 lagged too much on the full throttle shifts, but DCT says otherwise. With the DCT, it's just a constant rush of power. Switching between the driving modes can make for a wildly different driving experience too. It can be very docile in Comfort and emulate a planetary automatic perfectly or be almost too high-strung in Sport+, barking the tires on the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts when in manual mode. The DCT isn't perfect though either. It can be lurchy and a bit annoying in bumper to bumper and crawling traffic.

I would not have a PDK in my Cayman though. The 6MT in that car is too good. Just wish Porsche didn't make the gearing so damn long. The car would be a total blast with 15% more gearing in 1, 2, and 3.

Nothing is perfect though.

Absolutely. Love the DCT in my M2CS and think it matches the engine perfectly. I had two Porsche 991s, first pdk and then I bought into the online nonsense that manual is a better fit….it wasn’t. Horribly long gearing, no torque, 7 gears, didn’t like it at all. That said, I do think that certainly cars only make sense with a manual, like the c6 z06 I had, a DCT or other auto would have felt strange. I think manual is good for certain cars, typically small or old school, but it’s by no means a universal solution, especially if the gearing is too long and all the power is up top

Absolutely there are platforms that have been better tuned for a PDK than others. The engine and trans tuning have to match. Porsche does a great job with this. BMW is hit or miss.

That said.

As long as manual is an option I won't own another PDK.

baege wrote

I am not trying to resolve the never ending DCT vs manual debate...we all know it depends on what one enjoys

however, it did occur to me recently as I miss manual, that perhaps some engines actually match up with a DCT better than a manual

the GT3 engine for example given the frenzied way it revs to 9000 rpm, perhaps a DCT that hang with that frenzy works better than a manual that interrupts it?

whereas for example an engine that is not all about the revs, like a big displacement engine that has good low end torque fits a manual better since its not a big deal if the revs fall between shifts and its not all about keeping a frenzy going

the R8 is my first DCT after a bunch of manuals, and while I miss manual, I do wonder if the DCT actually fits the frenzied maniac that the V10 is

curious about people,s experiences on this

I don't think it's the engine necessarily, but the car as a package. A GT3 is a very high performance spec of a 911 and intended for putting down blazing track times. I'd argue that the S, GT, Carrera T and GTS are better suited to the manual from this perspective. With harder race suspension, tires and wheels, brakes, seats, etc., you are much more of a total package towards every little bit of performance and the porsche DCT doesn't suck. A manual is fun...but if fun is the goal, that would seem to point again towards those more appropriate levels of trim.

I'm not saying only a DCT for super-high performance, I'm just saying the entire package needs to be considered. Some cars suck with manuals or they just aren't well suited for them. Some are not well suited for autos when both options exist. Sometimes the DCT is just the better transmission option, manual shifting be damned. There's plenty to keep you entertained and engaged at the limit.

afadeev wrote

DCT is way more expensive than MT or automatic, thus it can only be found in high-end performance cars.

Plenty of cheap cars from Europe and SK have DCTs, hardly the domain of high-end cars. In fact, a lot of high-end stuff has moved back to torque converters.

from experience, supercharged engine if you like torque, NA engine if you like to hang out at high revs all the time

DCT doesn't automatically do what you expect it. the low end cheap VWs have DCT and ... don't go near them!

G30M wrote

from experience, supercharged engine if you like torque, NA engine if you like to hang out at high revs all the time

DCT doesn't automatically do what you expect it. the low end cheap VWs have DCT and ... don't go near them!

The SK DCTs aren’t great either

#AllDCTArentEqual

MJBO wrote

The SK DCTs aren’t great either

#AllDCTArentEqual

south korean?

yeah agree Hyundai DCT = avoid

They literally had to put a hanger on the shifter because people were burning them out.

How many manuals come with a tag explaining how not to money shift?

Betteridge's law of headlines

As said above, DCT (or modern AT like ZF8), have a performance advantage over manual with any engine type, however the performance gap gets even bigger on turbocharged engines. Not just because of shorter gears and faster shifting, but also due to no (or almost no) boost drop during shifting.

My first exposure to DCTs occurred at a stop light in Redwood City CA. In June 2009. In my Porsche 996 Turbo when a Lambo -- don't recall the exact model but a new-ish one -- pulled up along side. Light changed. We both took off.

Not in a stop light drag race just a safe and sane take off. Oh and making a left hand turn.

As we both accelerated after finishing the turn the Lambo driver went up through the gears and the shifts were so quick! As I shifted my Turbo -- 6 speed manual -- the shift speeds were absolutely lethargic.

It was then I realized the DCT was a real performance enhancement.

Since then I drove a couple of Macans (Porsche loaners) with the PDK. But I don't recall much about them other than the oil temperature ran hot but I was told this was normal.

But in Dec. 2022 I bought (at the Merriam KS MINI dealer) a 2022 MINI S with a 7-speed dual clutch sport transmission and while I only owned that car a few months (<6) and put but around 7K miles on -- 4K on a drive from NW Arkansas to Turlock CA and back -- that S was an awesome car and in no small part due to that fantastic transmission.

It wasn't just the dual clutch feature but the fact the transmission gearing and diff gearing were ideally suited to the car, the engine.

Before I bought the S I was a bit concerned that it might prove to be underwhelming based on my wonderful 2 years and 25K miles with my 1st MINI, a 2018 MINI JCW w/6-speed manual. But instead the S really delivered. Of course it wasn't as fast as the JCW but oh that dual clutch sport transmission made the S feel like it punched above its weight class.

I bought the S as a temporary daily driver until I could find a suitable MINI JCW w/6-speed manual. Found one in Loveland CO. Drove there in March 2023 and traded in the S for a 2023 JCW w/6-speed transmission.

Drove the JCW off the lot and pointed the car towards home 873 miles distant. But my initial progress was hampered by traffic congestion due to well heavy traffic and road construction. My first experience with serious road congestion since leaving CA back in July 2020.

More than once I considered turning around and going back and reclaiming my S.

But I drove on and the traffic lightened up and I began to make serious progress towards home (in a mild way as of course the engine was brand new) in the new JCW I fell back in love with the JCW.

But to this day though I still miss that S more than the JCW.

Don't forget manual shifting was never about being faster than a DCT (or TQ converter).

It's about the other benefits like: lower maintenance, being in the gear you want at all times, general engine control, anti theft (lol), reduced distractions, lighter weight.

If 0-60 or shaving off 0.1sec of your track times are your only goal then go do whatever automatic is available.

RockCrusher wrote

My first exposure to DCTs occurred at a stop light in Redwood City CA. In June 2009. In my Porsche 996 Turbo when a Lambo -- don't recall the exact model but a new-ish one -- pulled up along side. Light changed. We both took off.

Not in a stop light drag race just a safe and sane take off. Oh and making a left hand turn.

As we both accelerated after finishing the turn the Lambo driver went up through the gears and the shifts were so quick! As I shifted my Turbo -- 6 speed manual -- the shift speeds were absolutely lethargic.

It was then I realized the DCT was a real performance enhancement.

No Lamborghinis had dual clutch transmissions in 2009.