Really Good DCT spoil manual or just getting old?

So I recently drove a manual C7 . It was the first time in 6 months I have driven manual and I walked away with this thought:

manual doesnt actually all that bring much enjoyment, sure it keeps you more engaged but is it actually more fun? not sure, it is actually tiresome in some respects and interrupts the flow

the last time i drove a manual after an extended period was 1.5 years and it was an E86 M and I got emotional and knew I wanted manual again and ordered a manual M2 comp


very different reaction this time


the car I had before the E86 test drive was a m240i with the zf8

the car before the C7 drive was the R8 with the DCT

the DCT is way better than the ZF8 with much more of a feeling of immediacy, connection, response

maybe its spoiled me away from manuals?

or maybe I am just getting old and lazy

I defintely dont feel that pull to get a manual this time, like I did back in 2018...but that is 8 years ago and I am a much grumpier older dude!

baege wrote

manual doesnt actually all that bring much enjoyment, sure it keeps you more engaged but is it actually more fun?

I think it depends on why one likes a manual transmission. For me, it's mostly about the physicality of interacting with the controls (pedal, shifter) - so an automatic transmission, no matter how good (I drove both ZF8 and PDK) just can't replicate that, and is not fun for me.
If you enjoyed a manual car because it gave you control over the car and was faster to react than the automatic version, then a good modern automatic might very well be more enjoyable - giving you an even greater level of control and immediacy of shifting, but without the need to operate it and without the long interruption in power for shifting.

baege wrote

maybe its spoiled me away from manuals?

or maybe I am just getting old and lazy

Tastes change over time. No need to force yourself into something you used to enjoy but no longer do.

Ohio Enthusiast wrote

I think it depends on why one likes a manual transmission. For me, it's mostly about the physicality of interacting with the controls (pedal, shifter) - so an automatic transmission, no matter how good (I drove both ZF8 and PDK) just can't replicate that, and is not fun for me.
If you enjoyed a manual car because it gave you control over the car and was faster to react than the automatic version, then a good modern automatic might very well be more enjoyable - giving you an even greater level of control and immediacy of shifting, but without the need to operate it and without the long interruption in power for shifting.



Tastes change over time. No need to force yourself into something you used to enjoy but no longer do.

good point about the reason I enjoyed manual, I think it was both: the physicality of it and the control (I always felt more connected with a manual), but maybe the physicality of it doesn't appeal as much given my old grumpyness and with a good DCT the control is there

I was quite surprise at my reaction and definitely dont find myself wanting manual like I did before I did the drive

@baege You've been posting about manual versus DCT versus automatic for a couple years now. Part of me wants to say "For the love of God, make a decision"! The other part of me genuinely wants to help you figure out if you're getting old and grumpy. Answer is yes.

Driving a manual it's like having sex with a human. Driving an automatic is like watching a movie. Driving an electric is like being in a virtual reality simulator. Pick your poison accordingly.

I've been car made since I was 3 years old and I don't get the manual thing. I enjoy it but it's not a make or break for me, my main priority is can I select the gear, if I can then I am happy.

Alfisti wrote

I've been car made since I was 3 years old and I don't get the manual thing.

See my post above that clarifies the manual thing. It's a visceral experience. But, as we all get older, sometimes the visceral experience is not as special anymore.

thebmw wrote

See my post above that clarifies the manual thing. It's a visceral experience. But, as we all get older, sometimes the visceral experience is not as special anymore.

Even as a younger chap, I drove manuals cos that's all Alfa had for older cars that I liked but I could just as easily driven a modern PDK if it existed. Right now, the big thing for me, and I live where OP does, is the roads don't reward it in any way, shape or form. They are all ARROW straight, you need to drive a SOLID 30 minutes one way to find 3 to 4 minutes of good road.

My current F80 M3 is a DCT. I won't say I settled, but after coming from a manual e36 M3 I was nervous about the lack of driving "experience." I was wrong. I much prefer the DCT in the f80. Anymore, with how powerful modern sports cars are, I think a DCT/PDK/whatever makes more sense and lets you enjoy the care more as the manufacturer intended.

That being said, if/when I purchase another e36 or vintage car, I will want a manual. My personal opinion is that manual gearboxes shine in lighter and more simple cars.

I have had a manual for most of my adult life. But when DCT was faster and got better mileage i switched. I especially don’t miss a manual when I hit Seattle’s stop and go traffic.

Ohio Enthusiast wrote

I think it depends on why one likes a manual transmission. For me, it's mostly about the physicality of interacting with the controls (pedal, shifter) - so an automatic transmission, no matter how good (I drove both ZF8 and PDK) just can't replicate that, and is not fun for me.
If you enjoyed a manual car because it gave you control over the car and was faster to react than the automatic version, then a good modern automatic might very well be more enjoyable - giving you an even greater level of control and immediacy of shifting, but without the need to operate it and without the long interruption in power for shifting.

Tastes change over time. No need to force yourself into something you used to enjoy but no longer do.

Totally agree - could not have said it better myself!

baege wrote

good point about the reason I enjoyed manual, I think it was both: the physicality of it and the control (I always felt more connected with a manual), but maybe the physicality of it doesn't appeal as much given my old grumpyness and with a good DCT the control is there

I was quite surprise at my reaction and definitely dont find myself wanting manual like I did before I did the drive

For me, it's the physicality part of it. When I was looking for a change last year after selling my beloved E86M that I've owned for over 15+ years, the same had crossed my mind. I was shopping mostly for DCT as a replacement. But ultimately, I couldn't do it. My wife's Audi S3 has a really good 7-speed DSG. As much as I enjoy the S3, the driving experience just isn't the same as a true manual. I found myself just letting the car do the shifting in normal driving condition and it became mundane. The only time I shift it myself is on back roads, which is fun, but not the same experience. The fact that I wasn't getting any younger (I'm also a much grumpier older dude) as my knee is starting to tell me so! I knew my manual driving days are numbered and told myself that it's now or never. I have to admit that not all manuals are created equal, but when I sat in and drove the FL5 CTR last year, I knew that would probably be my last manual car. I really enjoyed it that I didn't even care that it drove the wrong wheels! I went shopping for one immediately and haven't regret it for one minute after a year with it!

Most people play with their phone while driving these days, so manuals are out.

Could be that the MT sucks in that car? I don't think many ppl ever raved about GM's MTs.

I'm a DCT guy through and through. Even since I learned to drive at 16, I never understood the fascination w MTs, it all seemed so damn inefficient and there's a true disconnect whenever you switch gears. Ofc, back in the day, there was no such thing as DCTs and the ATs were atrocious, so I get it. Some ppl love MTs and that's cool, but I'd rather have 2 hands on the wheel and uninterrupted power.

Ppl can and should drive whatever they want and it's laughable there are MT fascists that put down anyone who can't be bothered, when the irony is many of them probably don't even know how to shift properly. I digress. Drive whatever you love and who cares about other ppl, and they shouldn't either.

Automatics, whatever the flavor, suck.

For a performance car where I'm optimizing for the driving experience, anything with only 2 pedals no longer interests me.

tranquility wrote

Could be that the MT sucks in that car? I don't think many ppl ever raved about GM's MTs.

I'm a DCT guy through and through. Even since I learned to drive at 16, I never understood the fascinating w MTs, it all seemed so damn inefficient and there's a true disconnect whenever you switch gears. Ofc, back in the day, there was no such thing as DCTs and the ATs were atrocious, so I get it. Some ppl love MTs and that's cool, but I'd rather have 2 hands on the wheel and uninterrupted power.

Ppl can and should drive whatever they want and it's laughable there are MT fascists that put down anyone who can't be bothered, when the irony is many of them probably don't even know how to shift properly. I digress. Drive whatever you love and who cares about other ppl, and they shouldn't either.

I mean its not an amazing manual by any means, but its decent,

after the drive, I thought if I could spap my fingers would I go back to cayman GTS 4.0 with a great manual and I was like nah...

maybe I am just over the manual thing...didn't think that would ever happen but maybe it has

Unless you're heel/toe and rev matching etc, all you're doing is moving you're left leg instead of a paddle.

Alfisti wrote

Unless you're heel/toe and rev matching etc, all you're doing is moving you're left leg instead of a paddle.

I'm also moving my right hand instead of my middle fingers

Alfisti wrote

Unless you're heel/toe and rev matching etc, all you're doing is moving you're left leg instead of a paddle.

I personally do heel and toe and rev match on street and track, but even when I drove a bit with auto rev match (a Cayman and a Mustang) operating the clutch and moving the gear lever is still much more physically engaging than pressing a paddle or moving an automatic gear lever up/down.

But as I said, it does depend on ones preferences, and it's pretty clear that people have a really hard time imagining somebody that has difference preferences than themselves.

ICE and Manuel go together like peas and carrots.

Alfisti wrote

Unless you're heel/toe and rev matching etc, all you're doing is moving you're left leg instead of a paddle.

Yup and I betcha if they video'd themselves I'll be able to pick half a dozen things they've done wrong in technique.

Ohio Enthusiast wrote

I personally do heel and toe and rev match on street and track, but even when I drove a bit with auto rev match (a Cayman and a Mustang) operating the clutch and moving the gear lever is still much more physically engaging than pressing a paddle or moving an automatic gear lever up/down.

But as I said, it does depend on ones preferences, and it's pretty clear that people have a really hard time imagining somebody that has difference preferences than themselves.

100%, but it's pretty much the MT Nazis. I don't think there are gangs of DCTers, AT dudes or CVTers talking smack saying it's our way or the hwy lmao. Me, I don't give a crap , drive whatever they want. If they wanna constantly grab a vibrating meaty stick, more power to them.

tranquility wrote

Yup and I betcha if they video'd themselves I'll be able to pick half a dozen things they've done wrong in technique.



100%, but it's pretty much the MT Nazis. I don't think there are gangs of DCTers, AT dudes or CVTers talking smack saying it's our way or the hwy lmao. Me, I don't give a crap , drive whatever they want. If they wanna constantly grab a vibrating meaty stick, more power to them.

A manual is a manual. Everything else you mentioned is some form of an AT. If it shifts gears on it's own=AT. Most of these are smart enough now that you don't really need to paddle-shift em, unless you are going downhill and using engine compression to slow you. Manual is a completely different experience than those ATs. I'm not here to say it's better or worse, I think some combos of engine/chassis are better suited for certain transmissions, but one thing is for certain, it's easier to play on your phone with an AT.

RM7 wrote

A manual is a manual. Everything else you mentioned is some form of an AT. If it shifts gears on it's own=AT. Most of these are smart enough now that you don't really need to paddle-shift em, unless you are going downhill and using engine compression to slow you. Manual is a completely different experience than those ATs. I'm not here to say it's better or worse, I think some combos of engine/chassis are better suited for certain transmissions, but one thing is for certain, it's easier to play on your phone with an AT.

I don't care that MTers wanna say they are the only 'true' manual. DCT is superior performance-wise and that's what *I* care about. However, just like CVTs aren't ATs, neither is a DCT. You don't need an engineering degree to realize mechanically a DCT is closer to a MT than an AT, but, again, I couldn't care less and the only thing I would agree w MT nazis is that don't confuse a MT for a DCT and vice-versa. MTers can enjoy their supposed 'more involvement' and that's fine. No one cares or is claiming that any tranny is exactly the same as any other.

I hate ppl playing w their phones, save for using the gps. There should be serious draconian punishments for ppl that carelessly use their phones while driving.