Originally Posted by pinoye90

I had this and problem.. Replaced my whole suspension. Shocks, springs, front control arm bushing, Bmw alignment 3 times, road forced wheels and tires. Finally after buying new wheels swopped same tires onto new wheels gone... Damn wheels where bent from day one of purchase and not hub centric... Cost about 3k to figure out FML

A proper road force balance would have told you it was the wheels all along. Those machines have the capability of measuring radial and lateral runout of both the tire and the wheel. The problem is finding someone that actually knows how to use the &%$#&* equipment correctly to begin with.

[mlifxs]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

A proper road force balance would have told you it was the wheels all along. Those machines have the capability of measuring radial and lateral runout of both the tire and the wheel. The problem is finding someone that actually knows how to use the &%$#&* equipment correctly to begin with.

Yeah I think I get your point. The shop where I road forced was one of those popular tire dealer / installer franchise. Picked them for location / convenience. Think I'll be scheduling another balancing somewhere else.

btw, the suggestion about rotating would have been good (it is good, just not in my case), but I was too dumb to get them to write down which tires have the lower weight, and I have rotated them (square setup ), no help. Thanks for your comments.

Depending on how sensitive your "butt dyno" is, after a straight front to back rotation you should be able to accurately pick out which tires have the least amount of road force given their tendency to hop/shake/shimmy/etc. less than the others. I remember having one tire that was @ 12 lbs and all the rest were either 9 or below. No matter where I put that tire on the car, you could feel exactly which corner it was on.

But yeah, frustrating issue to try and track down indeed. Good luck yo!

[ChipXpert]

Originally Posted by steel609

Same problem with my 2010 328xi.

Does anyone else vibration get worse when you let off the gas?

I've noticed that sometimes the vibration becomes more noticeable when I let off the gas, but then will usually become less noticeable when I start accelerating again.

Your problem is suspension related.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by techwhiz

Your problem is suspension related.

What are you thinking of?

[pinoye90]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

A proper road force balance would have told you it was the wheels all along. Those machines have the capability of measuring radial and lateral runout of both the tire and the wheel. The problem is finding someone that actually knows how to use the &%$#&* equipment correctly to begin with.

Thanks discount tire for being properly trained how to do your job

[steel609]

Originally Posted by techwhiz

Your problem is suspension related.

Suggestions?

1. I have new tires (Goodyear Eagle Sport A/S).
2. New aftermarket wheels
3. New control arms
4. Recently changed diff fluid with Redline 75w90
5. Alignment with new tires.

[Cloud9blue]

Are you sure your wheels aren't bent? Also, sometimes new tires tend to be a little out of round from time to time (but not out of balance), I had that issue with my last set of R-S3 when went away after a few thousand miles and one track day. What about your rotors? Are they running true or correctly balanced from the factory? One of my new rotors from Meyle that I put on last month was out of true and causing quite a bit of vibration at speed above 70mph, had to return them and get a new set from ECS.

You do notice more vibration with M3 arms since their bushings a lot stiffer, but with a correctly balance and true running tire/wheel with properly functioning suspension, there should be absolutely no vibration even when traveling at triple digit speed.

[gavronm]

I'm leaning toward one or more bent wheels as well, as I chased that problem for awhile and had exactly the same symptoms.

I have to disagree with an earlier poster as I've been told (but don't personally know) by one of the managers at very well respected local tire shop that even a proper road force balance will not necessarily discover an out of round rim because the rim and tire can be perfectly balanced in a way that offsets the bend in the rim. Sometimes an attentive operator will be able to see that a rim is bent just by watching it spin on the machine, but not always.

The only way to really check the rim for out of round is to dismount the tire and measure the runout on the bead seat with a dial indicator. A good shop should be willing and able to do that for you for no more than $25/tire.

[mlifxs]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Are you sure your wheels aren't bent? Also, sometimes new tires tend to be a little out of round from time to time (but not out of balance), I had that issue with my last set of R-S3 when went away after a few thousand miles and one track day. What about your rotors? Are they running true or correctly balanced from the factory? One of my new rotors from Meyle that I put on last month was out of true and causing quite a bit of vibration at speed above 70mph, had to return them and get a new set from ECS.

You do notice more vibration with M3 arms since their bushings a lot stiffer, but with a correctly balance and true running tire/wheel with properly functioning suspension, there should be absolutely no vibration even when traveling at triple digit speed.

Thanks for your comments. If this for me,

1. From my road force balance, I asked them about the wheels and was told no issues. The rfb did improve the issue, but not enough, given the answer to my question in this post.

2. Tires. I have 12k miles on a square set of PSS, 245/35/18. Problem came to light after install, but also after several thousand miles of driving (didn't really have the opportunity to drive 80+ until a road trip).

3. Regarding the rotors, I had genuine rotors up front installed about 20k miles ago. Didn't have any steering vibration after install. I've switched pads; Akebono --> PF Z. Pretty radical change in compound and stopping characteristics. It might make sense to do a resurface for that reason, as well as eliminate the possibility you're raising.

Before I do 3. though, I'm heading back to the road force balance option, this time to a more experienced shop that can weigh in with a suspension inspection as well.

[ritzzzzzwik]

Originally Posted by steel609

Suggestions?

1. I have new tires (Goodyear Eagle Sport A/S).
2. New aftermarket wheels
3. New control arms
4. Recently changed diff fluid with Redline 75w90
5. Alignment with new tires.

Have the exact same setup, and the same damn vibrations. Its driving me nuts.
A good shop is able to mimimize the vibration, but not make it go away.
I hope someone figures it out.
The number of people having this same issue is too damn high!

[vladmury]

Same here, car has 307 000 km 2005 320d. New shocks, front suspension, brakes, alignment, new tyres but still vibrates also with winter wheels. It starts at 80 kmh and steering wheel can be seen how it moves left right up to 120 kmh where ig becomes a vibration felt also through seats and head rest.

Originally Posted by gavronm

I'm leaning toward one or more bent wheels as well, as I chased that problem for awhile and had exactly the same symptoms.

I have to disagree with an earlier poster as I've been told (but don't personally know) by one of the managers at very well respected local tire shop that even a proper road force balance will not necessarily discover an out of round rim because the rim and tire can be perfectly balanced in a way that offsets the bend in the rim. Sometimes an attentive operator will be able to see that a rim is bent just by watching it spin on the machine, but not always.

The only way to really check the rim for out of round is to dismount the tire and measure the runout on the bead seat with a dial indicator. A good shop should be willing and able to do that for you for no more than $25/tire.

If you don't personally know, than what basis do you have for disagreeing? No shit a tire/wheel assembly can be "perfectly balanced" when matching the high/low spot of each entity; THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF ROAD FORCE MATCHING TO BEGIN WITH!! That's what separates road force balancers from typical, low budget tire shop, shitty spin balancers in the first place. Those spin balancers could perfectly balance a cinder block if you wanted it to, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would roll down the road smoothly. I'd imagine most all wheels are "bent" to a certain degree, but if you can't detect vibration, or any other issue related to the tire/wheel assembly after having the full assembly force matched though, then the device has done it's job to reduce road force to a level that is imperceptible to the driver. At that point you don't have a wheel that's bent enough, or a tire that is out of round enough, to cause an issue; at that point it obviously isn't even noticeable or anything to worry about.

When moving to an assembly that CANNOT be force matched though, then you have to figure out whether the wheel is out of round, or the tire itself is 'bad". No, you do not need a dial indicator to get that reading. Yes, a road force balancer will do that for you. Tell your "well respected tire manager" to get better educated on his trade tools before spreading misinformation and making you look like an ass hat:

"An attentive operator" has nothing to do with diagnosing a bent rim when chasing down slight vibrations either. When thousands of an inch make a difference between a car that rides smooth as glass and one that hops at a certain speed, no one is going to have eyes that sharp. Sure, they'll be able to see obvious bends; if a rim is bent that bad though, Ray Charles could probably tell you that you got a bad rim...the key is to get properly functioning equipment and someone that actually knows how to use it.

[gavronm]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

If you don't personally know, than what basis do you have for disagreeing? ... Tell your "well respected tire manager" to get better educated on his trade tools before spreading misinformation and making you look like an ass hat:

As you seem to have figured out by the end of your rant - the basis for my disagreement is what someone told me. I explained the point I was making the way I did for a reason. If you want to disagree with that guy go right ahead but you don't have to attack me personally when I explained exactly what I heard and who I heard it from. Only one that looks like an ass hat is you.

My comment was based on my personal experience with a wheel and tire combo that, according to the tire shop, was perfectly road force balanced. When tire was dismounted and checked for runout it was out of spec - not by much mind you - but enough. Got the rim straightened and problem solved. I had the exact same issue of vibration above 80mph as the original poster and was sharing that experience in the hope of helping the original poster.

Maybe OP's tire shop has a crappy operator / road force balancer like mine did and this will help him solve his problem. My point in disagreeing (with you apparently, not going to go back and look now that I'm in the message compose screen) was simply that he shouldn't dismiss the possibility of a bent wheel just because his shop says it was road force balanced.

Originally Posted by gavronm

My comment was based on my personal experience with a wheel and tire combo that, according to the tire shop, was perfectly road force balanced. When tire was dismounted and checked for runout it was out of spec - not by much mind you - but enough. Got the rim straightened and problem solved. I had the exact same issue of vibration above 80mph as the original poster and was sharing that experience in the hope of helping the original poster.

Maybe OP's tire shop has a crappy operator / road force balancer like mine did and this will help him solve his problem...he shouldn't dismiss the possibility of a bent wheel just because his shop says it was road force balanced.

This is great info actually; way more relevant. I'm glad you were able to figure out the issue and more importantly described the steps needed for a proper diagnosis, in your case, as opposed to relying on the final word from a couple of shop bozos.

You are absolutely correct; someone simply getting their tires "road force balanced" should not rule out the possibility of a bad tire, rim, or both still causing the issue. Asking how much road force each assembly produced and whether or not they were force matched, etc. are questions that any competent "tire guy" should be able to answer. Unfortunately it's very simple to figure that out with the proper equipment; it's too bad that most operators have all the right tools, but not enough skill to use them effectively.

[David1]

You have Goodyear tires! They vibrate! I no longer use goodyear tires on any vehical I have. My 2014 Grand Cherokee has Goodyears and they vibrate even being roadforced and even having the tires rotated on the rims 90 degrees. I can see on the balancer why they vibrate. They just suck. I had eagle F1's and they had a vibration.....went to Michelin PS2 and smooth as glass even without roadforce.

[mlifxs]

Updating...

Went back to the original road force balancer. He was good with a second look and balancing.

Bottom line: noticeable improvement. Not dead perfect but it's now to the point where I'd be nit-picky to spend more time on it. At 95 mph, the wheel has a slight sensation to it and you can't see it vibrate.

To balance, 'all four needed 1/2 ounce or less weight'
After balance, two wheels were single digit, one was 12 and one was 27 lbs road force.

Can you reduce the 27 further, I asked? 'No. The machine will tell you if the tire can be adjusted on the rim. In this case, the machine said leave it where it is'.

He mounted the 27 on the rear passenger side and suggested that I not rotate it to the front in the future.

[David1]

I would swap that tire that is at 27.

[mlifxs]

Originally Posted by David1

I would swap that tire that is at 27.

yeah, that's an option, but I wonder if it's worth the trouble. What are your thoughts?

the vibration is pretty faint at high speed and I'm not typically driving that fast.

I'm thinking leaving the 27 tire out back for good will lower the overall life of the set, but for $200+ a tire plus install basically kills the benefit.

If you don't notice it, then don't even bother.

Pretty wild though; I had one tire that gave 12 lbs of road force on the right rear of my car and the "hop" it made drove me crazy.

[ritzzzzzwik]

congratulations OP on finally having it where you like it
I am still fighting this. Looks like unless your road force numbers are in single digit, you will get vibration. My front tires were replaced, and things got better, but they are still in double digit, and I still have some vibration. should have never bought these stupid good years all seasons!

[mlifxs]

UPDATE

since I last posted, several months after I had a second road force balance, the vibration has slowly increased, to where I could see very slight vibration in the wheel at 80mph, and could definitely feel it with hands on the wheel.

I did another inspection of the front end bushings, cleaned my hubs with a wire brush and coated with anti-seize. Took the car out again, problem was still there.

So, I bit the bullet and went to see a local shop that specializes in suspension and wheel issues, Advanced Performance Tire and Wheel, here in Tampa.

They checked the balancing and road force of each wheel and judged them to be very well balanced. They also concluded that the bushings were good.

Ultimately, what they found was that there was some small amount of play between the hubcentric wheel and the hub. They demonstrated by removing the lugs and showing me the play, with the wheel on the hub lip.

Their solution was to put foil tape around the hub lip, and coat the the foil with anti-seize. They carefully mounted the wheels and torqued the lugs with the wheels unloaded.

The results were a noticeable improvement, but not total elimination. It may be some small amount remaining, amplified by my aftermarket control arm bushings, stiffer springs etc.

Glad I pursued it. After the fact, I googled "foil tape hubcentric" and found that this technique is discussed on several car forums as a possible solution to mild steering vibration.

Not to throw them under the bus, but in case you're wondering, my wheels are APEX EC-7 and their center bore is designed to match BMW. Perhaps there is some small amount of manufacturing error. I'm keeping the wheels