Motorsport 24 is developing new S65 headers!

What is the "race version" that is mentioned on the first post? Long tube headers?

The race version does not have a flange that mates with the OE or normal aftermarket exhaust systems, which allows for slightly larger piping after the collector.

CBS wrote

Ilia, Nate, it's almost Christmas, do I need to have my Wife call you on these?

Any additional tuning needed to work with the VT-1?

That's correct, right in time for the holidays! I wonder if M24 planned their release based on that...

You will not need additional tuning to use the headers, but I am sure if ESS spent enough time with a header-equipped car on a dyno they could pull some extra power with a dedicated tune.

what kind of pricing range we looking at for these? $5,000K plus or less?

SROC3 wrote

what kind of pricing range we looking at for these? $5,000K plus or less?

We are working on keeping the pricing 4k or under.

How much louder would you anticipate a full catless exhaust with this being? It dont want the car sounding out of hand lol

erm324 wrote

How much louder would you anticipate a full catless exhaust with this being? It dont want the car sounding out of hand lol

I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.

Nate@IND wrote

I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.

If they flow better, I'd expect the exhaust to be at least a little bit louder. At least that was the case with my previous 350z which also has catless headers. It wasn't a huge increase though.

I don't know if this has been covered yet, but what kind of power increase should one expect with a full exhaust ie: akrapovic or innotech?

We will have to test each combination after the headers are released, before quoting specific power figured for each one.

Nate@IND wrote

I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.

Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.

Kyoshi71 wrote

Everything you say makes a whole lot of sense. However, header wrapping is not only to reduce underhood temps. The reason for wrapping, as I always understood it (other than a lucrative record deal ) was:
1) Keep the heat in because hot exhaust gas moves faster thus creating a better exhaust system.
2) Maintain a constant temperature at exhaust ports because temperature fluctuation kills exhaust valves.
3) Underhood temp reduction.
4) Create a wonderful itching sensation in the hands for about 2 days after installation from the fiberglass

Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.

Okay cool, definitely interested in these!

BMRLVR wrote

Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.



Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.

Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )

What do you do for a living if I may be so bold?

Singletrack wrote

Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )

What do you do for a living if I may be so bold?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412979&highlight=Moonstone

BMRLVR wrote

Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.



Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.

Great post! That makes sense

Singletrack wrote

Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )

Very True. This 8,400rpm stuff is new to most of us

So in theory, you pair this with the MRF Exhaust system and Tune - $3,200 + $3,900 for the headers + $1,500 installation = $8,600.

Assuming calculated gains claimed by both MRF and M24:
Total = 500HP/ 365TQ

DANG.

Nate@IND wrote

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412979&highlight=Moonstone

Ah, yes - now I remember. Thanks Nate! One of my favorite cars on here as well...

Nate@IND wrote

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412979&highlight=Moonstone

What a sick car. I also remember now.

I work on engines for a living..... they are pretty big engines though!!!

I am also lisenced to work on the automotive stuff but as far as money is concerned a Heavy Equipment pays bigger, pardon the pun!

very interesting

SROC3 wrote

So in theory, you pair this with the MRF Exhaust system and Tune - $3,200 + $3,900 for the headers + $1,500 installation = $8,600.

Assuming calculated gains claimed by both MRF and M24:
Total = 500HP/ 365TQ

DANG.

I have never had good luck adding up the claimed gains from a bunch of mods and then finding the total of those gains on the dyno. But the claims for the headers are significant -- as much as the nest best mod, a track pipe, and about 8 times better than the most popular mod, a more powerful sounding rear exhaust.