Electrified hybrid M cars could be inevitable says BMW

Powerslide wrote

And no one should be disappointed either. 918, LaFerrari, P1, NSX, i8 - the technology is already there to make hybrids have much higher performance than pure combustion engines- and without being heavier than current pure internal combustion powered performance cars - it is just a matter of time until that technology trickles down (pun intended) to the price point of where more "mainstream" performance cars are currently priced - like the F8x. Look at how positive of reviews the i8 has already received from a driving dynamics perspective without even being an M car (and yes - it weighs less than an M3/M4 too). It is inevitable that the price of performance-oriented hybrids will keep coming down. I believe a hybrid M4/M3 one or two generations out will be even more fun that the current model (which I still cannot get enough drives in)!!!

So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the real estate taken up by the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds while achieving 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.

Efthreeoh wrote  

Powerslide wrote

And no one should be disappointed either. 918, LaFerrari, P1, NSX, i8 - the technology is already there to make hybrids have much higher performance than pure combustion engines- and without being heavier than current pure internal combustion powered performance cars - it is just a matter of time until that technology trickles down (pun intended) to the price point of where more "mainstream" performance cars are currently priced - like the F8x. Look at how positive of reviews the i8 has already received from a driving dynamics perspective without even being an M car (and yes - it weighs less than an M3/M4 too). It is inevitable that the price of performance-oriented hybrids will keep coming down. I believe a hybrid M4/M3 one or two generations out will be even more fun that the current model (which I still cannot get enough drives in)!!!

So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the size of the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds and 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.

Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...

Powerslide wrote

Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...

That's my point. The i8 tech was outdated when it came out. I'm sure decades ago TRW (who actually patented the Prius-type of hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's) and GM and others started out with architecture with the ICE in the front (or rear) and the electric in the rear (or front) and realized that the car would have no passenger/luggage space. BMW decided with the i8 they'd make a car that had excellent performance and the sacrifice of usability. When you look at the i8's performance, it doesn't achieve its great acceleration AND get 50 MPG. That said it does give good performance at around 35 PMG, much better performance than a 35 MPG car, but nowhere near the 55 MPG targets that are 9 years away.

Konig Ludwig wrote

You mean a supercharger?

A turbocharger is already a type of supercharger, so indeed adding electric assist doesn't change this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

Along the lines of the naming convention used in the above article, perhaps you'd prefer to name it electro-turbo-supercharger, or maybe just eturbocharger for short.

SamS wrote

Likely the G90 (F90?) M5.

I believe it's pretty much confirmed that the next M5 will continue to use the S63
while adding optional AWD (standard feature in the US). See the November 2015 update near the end of this post:

Future BMW models information

Of course that doesn't necessarily completely rule out hybrid assist, but it seems unlikely at this point.

BPe90M3 wrote

....pretty dumb comment. Who said I was a purist? I prefer petrol motors. Same reason I'd never buy a diesel M...

Who said an M HYBRID wouldn't have a petrol motor....?

The future- electric and hybrids plus driverless cars!! How boring.

SCOTT26 wrote

An M550d and and an M550e can co-exist. An M550e can be offered in markets like North America whereas the M550d can't.

So perhaps the very first Power eDrive M model will fall under the M performance brand. Clearly an M550e will use an I6 just as the M550d does. This could, in short order, push the 550i out of the lineup, leaving the V8 (which can also be paired to eDrive in a future generation) just for the proper M car.

Dirk Hacker is really overthinking this. I don't think they need to look to electrification, they essentially have hybrid M cars already as they burn both gas and rubber.

vasi_M3 wrote

2.2L or 2.3L electric turbo and battery would be sweet...the problem is the weight of the battery. We need BMW to build the car with more CFRP ala i8 and we should be good. The problem with the sound will still exist though , but I'm accepting the fact that cars from now on won't sound as good as before.

My wife's Macan S (turbo V6) sounds pretty damn good as do a number of modded 1M's, so I think can be done if they don't get lazy and just pipe it in.

Mo@BMWofFairfax wrote

With a CAFE target of 55 miles per gallon, Hybrids are the future.

There are two reasons that that number was put into the future and one of them is so that it could be changed!

Isn't the "I" division for this kind of stuff?

If it'll be anything like Porsche 918, La Ferrari, P1, it should be quite ok.

M2 CSL

This is like building a mechanical watch, and putting a digital face on it.

Efthreeoh wrote  

Powerslide wrote

Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...

That's my point. The i8 tech was outdated when it came out. I'm sure decades ago TRW (who actually patented the Prius-type of hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's) and GM and others started out with architecture with the ICE in the front (or rear) and the electric in the rear (or front) and realized that the car would have no passenger/luggage space. BMW decided with the i8 they'd make a car that had excellent performance and the sacrifice of usability. When you look at the i8's performance, it doesn't achieve its great acceleration AND get 50 MPG. That said it does give good performance at around 35 PMG, much better performance than a 35 MPG car, but nowhere near the 55 MPG targets that are 9 years away.

What they'll probably do, given how old the tech is that BMW is using today, is throw on some brake regeneration, a small lithium pack to balance the extra weight of the drivetrain components snuggled between the engine/DCT, strip down the size of the engine even further (sigh), and integrate some other voodoo (i.e. AWD and water injection?) to sell it to us as a safer, faster, similar weight performance sedan as the F8x.

It may work...or it could be a complete fucking mess. Have you seen how difficult it is to open the hood in an i8?

Here's the answer:

AWD 3L and 4L 6 Cyl turbo engines with electric assist built into the engines powering the rear wheels through a DCT transmission combined with 2 electric motors powering the front with 28kW capacity.

Total HP deployed in the 3L combination, up to 550.
Total HP deployed in the 4L combination, 650+.

I'll definitely buy a next gen ///M equipped like this.

Efthreeoh wrote

So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the real estate taken up by the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds while achieving 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.

Remember when a 64 MB storage drive was as big as my head. Yeah, that was awesome.

That's where the hybrid technology is right now. Give it 10 years. You'll be carrying a backup battery for your 4 sec 55mpg 340i sedan in your back pocket.

wjjkoevoets wrote

I don't want to drive an electric car, not at present at least.

I wouldn't mind seeing BMW experimenting with an inline 6 3.0l turbo'd hybrid though...

They did that in the active hybrid 5 wasn't very great.

dmikhael619 wrote

They did that in the active hybrid 5 wasn't very great.

Huh, really? It's been a while since I checked, but from what I recall it wasn't too bad, but there was a slight noticable delay when swithcing between power sources.

Jblack4083 wrote  

I'm not sure how this can be news to anyone. Everyone knows that Formula 1 / Supercar technologies trickle down to regular road cars. With the Hybrid technology trickling down from Formula 1 to cars like the P1, 918, and LaFerrari; seeing it reach our high performance cars within the next 5-10 years is only inevitable.

You're right but I also think a lot of folk were and still are hoping somethings (like the S engines) will 'trickle up' to the i models

Falafel Combo wrote

Remember when a 64 MB storage drive was as big as my head. Yeah, that was awesome.

That's where the hybrid technology is right now. Give it 10 years. You'll be carrying a backup battery for your 4 sec 55mpg 340i sedan in your back pocket.

There are laws of physics and chemistry to consider. Hybrid cars have been in production almost 20 years now and billions spent on battery technology development and none have come close to providing the range and refueling capability of a gasoline/diesel powered internal combustion engine vehicle. 10 more years of tech is not going to bring a backup wallet-sized battery for an automobile.

Data storage and energy storage are two completely different technologies with entirely different engineering principles applied to them. They don't scale the same.

It is unlikely at this point that BMW will invest in a new six cylinder engine family with greater than 3L displacement. So, if there is going to be a 4L engine, it will almost certainly be a V8 (like Mercedes and Audi have).

Also BMW has stated in the past that they are targeting up to 200hp/L for their turbocharged engines. In fact, there was a dual motor + I4 eDrive concept from over a year ago that made a reported 670hp:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/89593/bmw-power-edrive-plug-in-hybrid-system-gets-670bhp

If we eventually see something like this combined with the aforementioned I6, over 1000hp is theorectically possible in future evolutions of the technology. Naturally, this puts the long term need for the V8 in peril. It is a not a question of if, but of how rapidly this will play out.

MKSixer wrote

Here's the answer:

AWD 3L and 4L 6 Cyl turbo engines with electric assist built into the engines powering the rear wheels through a DCT transmission combined with 2 electric motors powering the front with 28kW capacity.

Total HP deployed in the 3L combination, up to 550.
Total HP deployed in the 4L combination, 650+.

I'll definitely buy a next gen ///M equipped like this.