squartus wroteWhat's that narrow it down to?Alright, jacked it up one side at a time. Wiggled both front wheels hard, pulled on them and spun them.
Passenger side was solid as a rock zero movement no grinding when spun.
Driver side had a very slight movement when I pulled hard on 1 side or tried to wiggle back and forth, think I may of heard a slight sound as well.
Was very sleight but being on driver side as well as how senistive this car is this may be the culprit.
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Well it only moves from left to right, pulling at 12 and 6 its rock solid. No metal on metal sound, feels more like pulling against a rubber band.
So bushing? Maybe steering rack? deff not my area of knowledge. Wider tires and bigger wheels both shake more than oem 18s with oem sized wheels
So bushing? Maybe steering rack? deff not my area of knowledge. Wider tires and bigger wheels both shake more than oem 18s with oem sized wheels
squartus wroteNot my area either. If it doesn't turn out to be a DIY fix I prob won't bother with it for a whileWell it only moves from left to right, pulling at 12 and 6 its rock solid. No metal on metal sound, feels more like pulling against a rubber band.
So bushing? Maybe steering rack? deff not my area of knowledge. Wider tires and bigger wheels both shake more than oem 18s with oem sized wheels
Possible wheel bearing
BzsBimmer wroteI was thinking that but wouldnt it move when pulled from 12oclock and 6 as well?Possible wheel bearing
More than likely your issue is a result of worn out Tension strut arm bushings. I would replace these with some Poly units or spherical bearings. The stock bushings are terrible in those arms.
Malek@MRF wrotethis isn't the same as the monoball bushings that dinan makes is it? i have a slight shimmy that seems to go away when the car is at operating temperature.More than likely your issue is a result of worn out Tension strut arm bushings. I would replace these with some Poly units or spherical bearings. The stock bushings are terrible in those arms.
Malek@MRF wroteSomething like this?https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-221983-front-upper-control-arm-monoball-upgrade-left-and-right-e82-e89-e9x-including-m-models/More than likely your issue is a result of worn out Tension strut arm bushings. I would replace these with some Poly units or spherical bearings. The stock bushings are terrible in those arms.
I have replaced my lower control arms with sealed mono balls already, guess if the uppers are the problem more mono balls wouldnt hurt!
Could it also be tie rod ends? Any way to visually check if I stick another person under the car while I wiggle the wheel? Just dont want to end up replacing my entire front suspension for a $150 part lol.
No its not the tension strut arm bushings, gets pretty confusing as they are called several different things and the sites also switch up upper and lower control arms.
I pressed out and installed sealed mono balls in the big crooked arm that some sites list as upper control arm. Odd since dinan and other sites list it as lower control arm lol.
So its not that bushing, when I replaced I had the steering wheel shake before and after so thats not it.
I pressed out and installed sealed mono balls in the big crooked arm that some sites list as upper control arm. Odd since dinan and other sites list it as lower control arm lol.
So its not that bushing, when I replaced I had the steering wheel shake before and after so thats not it.
roastbeef wrotethis isn't the same as the monoball bushings that dinan makes is it? i have a slight shimmy that seems to go away when the car is at operating temperature.
squartus wroteCorrect. The only rubber bushing in the front suspension is the tension strut arm attached to the sub-frame. Replace this with a monoball.
Malek@MRF wroteYea where I got mixed up, Iv already replaced this with mono balls about year and half ago. I had vibrations before and after this, so thats not the culprit.Correct. The only rubber bushing in the front suspension is the tension strut arm attached to the sub-frame. Replace this with a monoball.
when I pull on the wheel it feels elastic not really loose or clunky etc
What Causes Wheel Vibrations?
Roger Kraus Racing Ent., Inc. 2896 Grove Way. Castro Valley, CA 94546 http://www.rogerkrausracing.com
What Causes Wheel Vibrations?
A. Wheels are not properly balanced. A proper balance job will usually require weights on the outside and inside on each wheel. The reason for this is as follows: wheel balance can be divided in two categories. Dynamic and Static. Dynamic problems will always cause a side to side vibration known as wheel shimmy. This will occur at speeds between 52 MPH to 65 MPH. Static balance problems usually occur at speeds above 70 MPH. Dynamic vibration problems always require weights inside and outside. Dynamic balance is always recommended.
B. Bent Wheels: If the wheels are not round, a vibration will usually occur. original equipment wheels have a tolerance of .028". Low quality aftermarket wheels use a tolerance of .045" and top quality wheels have a tolerance of less than .012". Lateral run out can also cause vibrations or wheel shimmy. Usually a wheel that has more than .050" run out ( lateral or out of round ) will cause vibrations to those sensitive enough.
C. Hubcentric Wheels: A hubcentric wheel is located on the center of the hub with about .003" to .012" clearance. With this design, a wheel is balanced on the same center hole that goes over the spindle hub. If the wheel is not centered on the hub, wheel vibrations will almost always be the result. Non hubcentric wheels must be balanced through the lug nut seats, this is not always successful. High quality wheels are always hubcentric in design.
D. Tire Quality: The simple fact is, cheap tires are not good and good tires are not cheap. Tire quality is very important on all cars and critical on foreign vehicles. lighter suspension designs are more sensitive to vibrations. There are tires made for American cars and foreign vehicles. Many tires are made for American cars and should never be used on foreign cars. Foreign car tires may be used on American cars if the load range is correct. A qualified tire dealer can help if you have questions. Lower quality tires have another problem which is LEAD PULL, better known as tire pull. Another problem is tire trueness. High quality tires are truer and maintain this quality longer.
E. Worn Suspension Parts: Worn suspension bushings, tie rod ends, track rods, ball joints, loose wheel bearings, steering rack and bent hubs can all contribute to vibration problems. It can be difficult to find service shops that can properly diagnose this problem. Have the mechanic show you the suspect parts, ask questions.
F. Brake Drum Balance: Many aftermarket drums and some discs can be out of balance from the factory. We have seen some drums that were 14 ounces out of balance. Correct this problem and usually vibrations will disappear. Most shops cannot properly diagnose this problem.
G. Out Of Round Tires: Common to less expensive tires. Old or nearly worn out tires tend to get out of round. If the tire has sufficient tread depth left, you can have them trued. If the tire brand is of low quality this may be a waste of time. Such tires will not maintain a round shape in use.
H. Flat Spotting: Tires that have been locked under braking. These tires ( usually the front ) will have an area of the tread scrubbed flat. If the tire has sufficient tread depth left, you can have the tires trued and re-balanced.
I. Worn Shocks: Worn shocks do not cause vibrations but contribute to uneven tire wear which does. If the vehicle has been driven with bad shocks for an extended period you may have scalloped tires. The only cure is new shocks and to true or replace the tires. A totally worn out shock will cause vibrations and must be replaced before further diagnosis can take place.
J. Alignment: It is very rare to have an alignment cure a vibration problem. However, bad alignment can cause uneven tire wear which will create an out of balance problem sooner than normal. Alignment should be checked yearly and tires balanced at 10,000 mile intervals. Occasionally alignment can cure vibration problems but it is rare.
K. Warped Rotors: Warped rotors or drums will cause a shimmy or pulse when the brakes are applied. Turning the rotors or drums will usually solve this problem. If the rotors or drums are close to minimum thickness the problem may reoccur.
L. Cracked Frame: This problem is very rare and usually easy to detect. The vehicle will exhibit very low frequency vibrations when major bumps are encountered. Check for cracked or broken welds at the front cross-member. This is fairly common on Corvettes up to 1984. Some early Mustangs have the same problem.
M. Drive Shaft: This problem can be hard to find and diagnose. To solve this problem it may be necessary to have the drive shaft checked for balance. U joints can also cause vibration problems.
N. Wheel Locks: If the wheel locks are heavier than the lug nut they replace, you may have vibrations. To test this theory, install the lug nuts in place of the locks and test drive. Quality shops can COUNTERBALANCE the wheels to correct for the additional weight from the locks.
O. Wheel Torque: If the wheel nuts are over-tightened, the hub or rotor may be distorted. Older VW bugs were notorious for having this problem. If this has occurred, it may require turning the rotors or drums.
P. Cracked Wheels: Not very common. We have seen this happen more often with steel wheels than any other type. There will usually be a grinding noise when cornering. This was more common during the 1970's on heavy American cars.
Q. Wheel Offset & Width: If replacement wheels do not have the proper offset, vibrations will increase. If wider wheels are installed there is an tendency towards increased vibration.
Roger Kraus
OP, I would check out F.
This is from Wikipedia
"Rotating unbalance is the uneven distribution of mass around an axis of rotation. A rotating mass, or rotor, is said to be out of balance when its center of mass (inertia axis) is out of alignment with the center of rotation (geometric axis). Unbalance causes a moment which gives the rotor a wobbling movement characteristic of vibration of rotating structures."
Roger Kraus Racing Ent., Inc. 2896 Grove Way. Castro Valley, CA 94546 http://www.rogerkrausracing.com
What Causes Wheel Vibrations?
A. Wheels are not properly balanced. A proper balance job will usually require weights on the outside and inside on each wheel. The reason for this is as follows: wheel balance can be divided in two categories. Dynamic and Static. Dynamic problems will always cause a side to side vibration known as wheel shimmy. This will occur at speeds between 52 MPH to 65 MPH. Static balance problems usually occur at speeds above 70 MPH. Dynamic vibration problems always require weights inside and outside. Dynamic balance is always recommended.
B. Bent Wheels: If the wheels are not round, a vibration will usually occur. original equipment wheels have a tolerance of .028". Low quality aftermarket wheels use a tolerance of .045" and top quality wheels have a tolerance of less than .012". Lateral run out can also cause vibrations or wheel shimmy. Usually a wheel that has more than .050" run out ( lateral or out of round ) will cause vibrations to those sensitive enough.
C. Hubcentric Wheels: A hubcentric wheel is located on the center of the hub with about .003" to .012" clearance. With this design, a wheel is balanced on the same center hole that goes over the spindle hub. If the wheel is not centered on the hub, wheel vibrations will almost always be the result. Non hubcentric wheels must be balanced through the lug nut seats, this is not always successful. High quality wheels are always hubcentric in design.
D. Tire Quality: The simple fact is, cheap tires are not good and good tires are not cheap. Tire quality is very important on all cars and critical on foreign vehicles. lighter suspension designs are more sensitive to vibrations. There are tires made for American cars and foreign vehicles. Many tires are made for American cars and should never be used on foreign cars. Foreign car tires may be used on American cars if the load range is correct. A qualified tire dealer can help if you have questions. Lower quality tires have another problem which is LEAD PULL, better known as tire pull. Another problem is tire trueness. High quality tires are truer and maintain this quality longer.
E. Worn Suspension Parts: Worn suspension bushings, tie rod ends, track rods, ball joints, loose wheel bearings, steering rack and bent hubs can all contribute to vibration problems. It can be difficult to find service shops that can properly diagnose this problem. Have the mechanic show you the suspect parts, ask questions.
F. Brake Drum Balance: Many aftermarket drums and some discs can be out of balance from the factory. We have seen some drums that were 14 ounces out of balance. Correct this problem and usually vibrations will disappear. Most shops cannot properly diagnose this problem.
G. Out Of Round Tires: Common to less expensive tires. Old or nearly worn out tires tend to get out of round. If the tire has sufficient tread depth left, you can have them trued. If the tire brand is of low quality this may be a waste of time. Such tires will not maintain a round shape in use.
H. Flat Spotting: Tires that have been locked under braking. These tires ( usually the front ) will have an area of the tread scrubbed flat. If the tire has sufficient tread depth left, you can have the tires trued and re-balanced.
I. Worn Shocks: Worn shocks do not cause vibrations but contribute to uneven tire wear which does. If the vehicle has been driven with bad shocks for an extended period you may have scalloped tires. The only cure is new shocks and to true or replace the tires. A totally worn out shock will cause vibrations and must be replaced before further diagnosis can take place.
J. Alignment: It is very rare to have an alignment cure a vibration problem. However, bad alignment can cause uneven tire wear which will create an out of balance problem sooner than normal. Alignment should be checked yearly and tires balanced at 10,000 mile intervals. Occasionally alignment can cure vibration problems but it is rare.
K. Warped Rotors: Warped rotors or drums will cause a shimmy or pulse when the brakes are applied. Turning the rotors or drums will usually solve this problem. If the rotors or drums are close to minimum thickness the problem may reoccur.
L. Cracked Frame: This problem is very rare and usually easy to detect. The vehicle will exhibit very low frequency vibrations when major bumps are encountered. Check for cracked or broken welds at the front cross-member. This is fairly common on Corvettes up to 1984. Some early Mustangs have the same problem.
M. Drive Shaft: This problem can be hard to find and diagnose. To solve this problem it may be necessary to have the drive shaft checked for balance. U joints can also cause vibration problems.
N. Wheel Locks: If the wheel locks are heavier than the lug nut they replace, you may have vibrations. To test this theory, install the lug nuts in place of the locks and test drive. Quality shops can COUNTERBALANCE the wheels to correct for the additional weight from the locks.
O. Wheel Torque: If the wheel nuts are over-tightened, the hub or rotor may be distorted. Older VW bugs were notorious for having this problem. If this has occurred, it may require turning the rotors or drums.
P. Cracked Wheels: Not very common. We have seen this happen more often with steel wheels than any other type. There will usually be a grinding noise when cornering. This was more common during the 1970's on heavy American cars.
Q. Wheel Offset & Width: If replacement wheels do not have the proper offset, vibrations will increase. If wider wheels are installed there is an tendency towards increased vibration.
Roger Kraus
OP, I would check out F.
This is from Wikipedia
"Rotating unbalance is the uneven distribution of mass around an axis of rotation. A rotating mass, or rotor, is said to be out of balance when its center of mass (inertia axis) is out of alignment with the center of rotation (geometric axis). Unbalance causes a moment which gives the rotor a wobbling movement characteristic of vibration of rotating structures."
Check you wheel weights make sure none flew off
Iv had 3 sets of wheels and wheels also balanced again with a different set of tires all same vibration, worse with the wider or taller wheels/tires. So not a missing weight/bent wheel/bad balance job
Brake drums are OEM from factory
Going to check soon when I can get another person here if Im getting any movement in the tie rod ends, hopefully its that. If not hopefully something else will show movement with another set of eyes here.
Will deft let everyone know what the problem is as this seems to be a more common thing than I thought.
Brake drums are OEM from factory
Going to check soon when I can get another person here if Im getting any movement in the tie rod ends, hopefully its that. If not hopefully something else will show movement with another set of eyes here.
Will deft let everyone know what the problem is as this seems to be a more common thing than I thought.
Did you try replacing your front rotors?
There was a thread a while ago about one of the front rotors not being centered which caused vibration
There was a thread a while ago about one of the front rotors not being centered which caused vibration
Groundpilot wroteNot yet, going to try looking at all suspension parts first.Did you try replacing your front rotors?
There was a thread a while ago about one of the front rotors not being centered which caused vibration
First and most obvious things to check first are your wheels/tires to ensure no flat spots, no bends or damage. Correctly road-force balanced, otherwise vibration is guaranteed to occur. If you have already switched out to mono-ball bushings in the tension arm, then look into the wheels and tires and then your discs. Bad wheel bearings can cause the issue as well. It's hard to say without knowing more.
Malek@MRF wroteDeffently not wheels or tires, switched out way to many sets of wheels and alot of different rubber and balancing. Been doing this for about 25,000 miles.First and most obvious things to check first are your wheels/tires to ensure no flat spots, no bends or damage. Correctly road-force balanced, otherwise vibration is guaranteed to occur. If you have already switched out to mono-ball bushings in the tension arm, then look into the wheels and tires and then your discs. Bad wheel bearings can cause the issue as well. It's hard to say without knowing more.
What kind of lateral and radial runout numbers should we look for at the wheels? I measured between .009 and .017" on my HREs. The measurements were pretty consistent between both front wheels so I figure this is OK?
My rotors were both within 1-2 thou laterally and one rotor was this close radially but one rotor was off 20(!) thou off radially (you could actually see an uneven lip around the edge of the rotor from the pads) Could this be my issue?
Malek - if you happen to see this are you doing road force balancing?
My rotors were both within 1-2 thou laterally and one rotor was this close radially but one rotor was off 20(!) thou off radially (you could actually see an uneven lip around the edge of the rotor from the pads) Could this be my issue?
Malek - if you happen to see this are you doing road force balancing?
I have the same thing, happened on my Apex's and my Volk's. I'll be tackling this after my rod bearings.
MFL wroteYea iv gotten sidetracked trying to fix whatever is causing my belt pullys and crank pully to wobble. Will get rest of parts in to finish replacing everything thats not the harmonic balancer, just really really hope thats not what it is.I have the same thing, happened on my Apex's and my Volk's. I'll be tackling this after my rod bearings.
squartus wroteFKing cars.Yea iv gotten sidetracked trying to fix whatever is causing my belt pullys and crank pully to wobble. Will get rest of parts in to finish replacing everything thats not the harmonic balancer, just really really hope thats not what it is.
