Final track wheel questions - ready to buy

slicer wrote

I think with your wheel spec that you should do both together. You will not need front spacers with lowering springs because you have sufficient inner clearance for 10 et25. However you will want as much negative camber as possible with OE suspension. There are alignment pins on the top mounts which can be removed to get to about -1.7 camber. I recommend getting your front camber to that level when your new shocks are installed since you will likely need an alignment at that time anyway.

I would plan on 12mm spacers for the rear. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have them increase your rear camber to -1.5 to -1.7 at the same time.

I'm installing my shocks, so it looks like I have some homework to do regarding the whole camber thing. I did my springs with the help of a friend, that was the first time I did suspension work - but it was not as bad as I thought it would be. Considering I have plenty of lift access and I am confident in my ability to change the shocks, I would not pay someone to do that job. But, adjusting the camber adds a whole new element to it. I will need to find a great DIY thread with pics or some videos to watch so I know wtf I'm doing. Thank you for all of this really specific info! I will be referring back to this when the time comes.

DreamTime wrote

I'm installing my shocks, so it looks like I have some homework to do regarding the whole camber thing. I did my springs with the help of a friend, that was the first time I did suspension work - but it was not as bad as I thought it would be. Considering I have plenty of lift access and I am confident in my ability to change the shocks, I would not pay someone to do that job. But, adjusting the camber adds a whole new element to it. I will need to find a great DIY thread with pics or some videos to watch so I know wtf I'm doing. Thank you for all of this really specific info! I will be referring back to this when the time comes.

It's really easy to remove the pins, just takes 30-40 minutes maybe. Then you can slide the front struts inward, toward the engine, as much as they will move (which isn't much) to achieve max factory allowed negative camber. Now get an alignment done, preferably at the "smart" shop, and have the front toe set along with rear camber and toe.

Since your car is already lowered with the springs, you will get more than -1.6 or so that is typical. The strut design, like all Macpherson struts, gains negative camber on compression. At your current ride height, you may end up with -2.0 or thereabouts. Depending on how low it is, you may get more camber than you want for daily driving -- not sure.

Anyway, here is a DIY thread by Richbot for pulling the pins.

Personally, since this isn't a track only car and is street driven most all of the time, I would go with a front toe setting that is reasonable, i.e. slight toe-in, but on the less end of the factory spec range. In the rear I'd set the toe and camber dead center on the factory spec range with the car loaded in the driver's seat and a full tank of gas. If you were going to track it all the time and not have to worry about inside edge wear in the rear, you might use a more aggressive setting.

CSBM5 wrote

It's really easy to remove the pins, just takes 30-40 minutes maybe. Then you can slide the front struts inward, toward the engine, as much as they will move (which isn't much) to achieve max factory allowed negative camber. Now get an alignment done, preferably at the "smart" shop, and have the front toe set along with rear camber and toe.

Since your car is already lowered with the springs, you will get more than -1.6 or so that is typical. The strut design, like all Macpherson struts, gains negative camber on compression. At your current ride height, you may end up with -2.0 or thereabouts. Depending on how low it is, you may get more camber than you want for daily driving -- not sure.

Anyway, here is a DIY thread by Richbot for pulling the pins.

Personally, since this isn't a track only car and is street driven most all of the time, I would go with a front toe setting that is reasonable, i.e. slight toe-in, but on the less end of the factory spec range. In the rear I'd set the toe and camber dead center on the factory spec range with the car loaded in the driver's seat and a full tank of gas. If you were going to track it all the time and not have to worry about inside edge wear in the rear, you might use a more aggressive setting.

Sorry, busy day yesterday. Mondays...

There is so much good info in here!! Wow, thank you! I'm starting to understand how all of this works, which is awesome. It makes me quite happy! I have also been reading up about camber and toe, which has been very helpful. The more I learn the more questions I have though

This is what I am worried about: the two wheels I hope to switch back and forth between are a bit different, 18x10 sq for the track and 19x9.5/19x10.5 staggered for the street. I hope there is a way to set up my car so that it will work, otherwise I guess I can switch out my street wheels to 18s. But, I love my 19s for the street... I would be willing to sacrifice if needed though... I'm concerned the difference in sizes will make it difficult to find a camber/toe setting that works for both setups. Thankfully I still have a little time to figure it out.

Thank you also for the DIY link! That is exactly what I needed

DreamTime wrote

Sorry, busy day yesterday. Mondays...

There is so much good info in here!! Wow, thank you! I'm starting to understand how all of this works, which is awesome. It makes me quite happy! I have also been reading up about camber and toe, which has been very helpful. The more I learn the more questions I have though

This is what I am worried about: the two wheels I hope to switch back and forth between are a bit different, 18x10 sq for the track and 19x9.5/19x10.5 staggered for the street. I hope there is a way to set up my car so that it will work, otherwise I guess I can switch out my street wheels to 18s. But, I love my 19s for the street... I would be willing to sacrifice if needed though... I'm concerned the difference in sizes will make it difficult to find a camber/toe setting that works for both setups. Thankfully I still have a little time to figure it out.

Thank you also for the DIY link! That is exactly what I needed

camber and toe won't really change with the different wheels you're using

What's most interesting is using an alignment that allows you to swap between street camber and track camber and at the same time adjust toe to be correct.

So, you set the rear at -1.8 camber or something with zero toe. That you'll leave alone

You set the front at -2.0 camber and like 2mm of toe in. Then when you're at the track and switch to -3.0 camber it'll move the toe in to toe out by itself, which is just what you want for track use.

Obviously you need camber plates for this to work

I'm not certain the numbers are the ones I wrote, but they're close

SYT_Shadow wrote

camber and toe won't really change with the different wheels you're using

What's most interesting is using an alignment that allows you to swap between street camber and track camber and at the same time adjust toe to be correct.

So, you set the rear at -1.8 camber or something with zero toe. That you'll leave alone

You set the front at -2.0 camber and like 2mm of toe in. Then when you're at the track and switch to -3.0 camber it'll move the toe in to toe out by itself, which is just what you want for track use.

Obviously you need camber plates for this to work

I'm not certain the numbers are the ones I wrote, but they're close

Oh this is good news! I was a little worried it wouldn't work.

Should I just go ahead and install camber plates when I do my shocks? It seems like the right time to do that if I'm going to. I guess I will just need to find the right shop to do my alignment after all of this has been done. This is becoming a little more complicated than I first expected, but that's okay. I don't want to blow through tires bc of excessive uneven wear, which was my main concern with messing with my camber and toe while running 2 different wheel/tire setups on the same car. I also want to make sure my car handles properly in both of the environments I use it in.

I'm sure I will have more questions, thank you for bearing with me through all of this! In the meantime, I am going to start looking up all the threads on this forum that relate to these topics so I can educate myself as much as possible.

Thank you!!

DreamTime wrote

Oh this is good news! I was a little worried it wouldn't work.

Should I just go ahead and install camber plates when I do my shocks? It seems like the right time to do that if I'm going to. I guess I will just need to find the right shop to do my alignment after all of this has been done. This is becoming a little more complicated than I first expected, but that's okay. I don't want to blow through tires bc of excessive uneven wear, which was my main concern with messing with my camber and toe while running 2 different wheel/tire setups on the same car. I also want to make sure my car handles properly in both of the environments I use it in.

I'm sure I will have more questions, thank you for bearing with me through all of this! In the meantime, I am going to start looking up all the threads on this forum that relate to these topics so I can educate myself as much as possible.

Thank you!!

I don't think the two sets of wheels will do anything. I run these settings all the time regardless of whether I'm running OE 18" with winter tires, ZCP 19" , BW TE:AL in 18x10.5 or ARC8 in 18x10

I drive 10h to tracks and have no issues. I just move the camber plates the first track day and then set them back when I leave.

The nice thing about the mcpherson front suspension --corrected below, this is not due to the mcpherson at all-- is it changes toe in the direction you want when adding camber.

Definitely install the camber plates when you the shocks. No reason not to.

I looked up the settings you want. Here goes
Front -3 camber 1/8 toe out for track use
Align front to -1.8 camber and 1/16 toe in which should turn into 1/8 toe out when you change camber
Align rear -1.8 camber 1/8 toe in

SYT_Shadow wrote

The nice thing about the mcpherson front suspension is it changes toe in the direction you want when adding camber.

It's not that it's a macpherson strut but whether the tie rod is located in front of or behind the axle centerline. For example, on my E39 M5 with its recirculating ball steering and behind centerline tie rod connection to hub results in toe in when camber is moved more negative...sadly...so on that car, it's the opposite of what you want for an easy-street-to-track-camber-plate-slide.

CSBM5 wrote

It's not that it's a macpherson strut but whether the tie rod is located in front of or behind the axle centerline. For example, on my E39 M5 with its recirculating ball steering and behind centerline tie rod connection to hub results in toe in when camber is moved more negative...sadly...so on that car, it's the opposite of what you want for an easy-street-to-track-camber-plate-slide.

thanks for the clarification

You guys are amazing, I hope you know

I really can’t thank you enough for all of this. Now I know exactly what I need to do, that is immeasurably meaningful. Plus, I learned some really cool stuff about how it all works, which is also very meaningful. Sorry, kind of a girly response I know, but still… lol. I still need to order my camber plates and I think I maybe found some spare spacers a friend of mine is getting rid of from his E92 M3. My studs and tires have already come in so… I’m getting pretty excited to get to work on my car. The only wildcard is my Bilstein shocks… fingers crossed they come in soon. I can hardly wait for track season to start!!