Staggered vs. square

shimmy23 wrote

I’ve personally ran both and for daily driving I prefer staggared with OEM ratios. As mentioned, squared setups are nice for tire rotations but I just didn’t like the drive ability with them. The car felt less stable at higher speeds imo

I greatly prefer staggered setups for the street as well

Every time I drive a square setup to the track, which can be 10h away, I like the steering less than when I run a staggered OEM-ish setup.

I daily an 18x10" square with 275/35 PZeros and have zero issues with tramlining, scrubbing or rubbing. I'm even running a 15mm spacer in the rear for the "flush" look. I love how the car drives and I love being able to rotate the tires whenever I want too. Get a quality alignment designed for a sqaure set up and you won't have issues.

Suspension is EDC comp shocks with H&R springs, E36m3 bump stops.

ham_sammich wrote

I daily an 18x10" square with 275/35 PZeros and have zero issues with tramlining, scrubbing or rubbing. I'm even running a 15mm spacer in the rear for the "flush" look. I love how the car drives and I love being able to rotate the tires whenever I want too. Get a quality alignment designed for a sqaure set up and you won't have issues.

Suspension is EDC comp shocks with H&R springs, E36m3 bump stops.

Square aside, how do you like the ride with your suspension combo? I have been considering this same setup as a cheaper alternative to getting a full coilover setup. Plus mine is a street cruiser as it is, and I think an expensive KW setup is just overkill. I guess the only difference for me is that I will be running square ZCP 19's with 275s. I just don't want a junk ride.

spazzyfry123 wrote

ham_sammich wrote

I daily an 18x10" square with 275/35 PZeros and have zero issues with tramlining, scrubbing or rubbing. I'm even running a 15mm spacer in the rear for the "flush" look. I love how the car drives and I love being able to rotate the tires whenever I want too. Get a quality alignment designed for a sqaure set up and you won't have issues.

Suspension is EDC comp shocks with H&R springs, E36m3 bump stops.

Square aside, how do you like the ride with your suspension combo? I have been considering this same setup as a cheaper alternative to getting a full coilover setup. I guess the only difference for me is that I will be running square ZCP 19's with 275s.

I like it. It can be alittle harsh in sport setting and these shitty florida roads.

ham_sammich wrote

I like it. It can be alittle harsh in sport setting and these shitty florida roads.

I'm a non-EDC guy here, so perpetual "normal" setting.

spazzyfry123 wrote

Square aside, how do you like the ride with your suspension combo? I have been considering this same setup as a cheaper alternative to getting a full coilover setup. Plus mine is a street cruiser as it is, and I think an expensive KW setup is just overkill. I guess the only difference for me is that I will be running square ZCP 19's with 275s. I just don't want a junk ride.

ham_sammich wrote

I like it. It can be alittle harsh in sport setting and these shitty florida roads.

I've heard Eibachs are a little bit softer. Also a more mild drop. Might want to look into those in addition to the H&Rs if your main concern is ride quality.

Iyzmi wrote

I've heard Eibachs are a little bit softer. Also a more mild drop. Might want to look into those in addition to the H&Rs if your main concern is ride quality.

Thanks for the tip! I've run Eibachs in the past with no real regrets. I've also run H&R's with good results, too.

What's the proper rotation for a square set up? Front tires to back and then back crosses to front?

Any way to do this with just one floor jack?

I think you can cross rotate only if you have tires that are symmetrical — same pattern across tread width.

You have that backwards

So long as the tire is not directional, you can do side to side and front to back. You’ll know if yours is directional because it will have “rotation” with an arrow on it. Most symmetrical tires are directional. Most assymetrics (like the PS4S, almost all Contis and Michelins and most pirellis nowadays) are asymmetric only.

The assymetric directional ones are a real pita. Unique tire for each corner on a staggered setup

And then there’s the “most of those directional arrows are just there to make sure the nvh and water evacuation works as it should and you can run backwards if needed on track”

Richbot wrote

You have that backwards

So long as the tire is not directional, you can do side to side and front to back. You’ll know if yours is directional because it will have “rotation” with an arrow on it. Most symmetrical tires are directional. Most assymetrics (like the PS4S, almost all Contis and Michelins and most pirellis nowadays) are asymmetric only.

The assymetric directional ones are a real pita. Unique tire for each corner on a staggered setup

And then there’s the “most of those directional arrows are just there to make sure the nvh and water evacuation works as it should and you can run backwards if needed on track”

What do you mean by this?

My Continentals are just "keep this side outside" and can go wherever as I understand it. I'm staggered, so I can only go left to right, but if I were square...less do eet.

Thread resurrection alert:
Newb to the forum, have a stock ZCP E92 that sees very occasional track time (swore to myself I would keep it stock and just drive it on the street, but old habits die hard).
Decided to get some track specific wheels and tires, and keep the stock ZCPs for the street.
Was initially going to get a 18x10 square setup, but after reading everything I could find on this forum and elsewhere, I decided on a staggered set of 18x9.5 + 18x10.5 Apex Arc-8, with the intention of going with 265/35/18 FT and 285/35/18 RR. Tires will be RS4s as I need to stay at a +200 treadwear rating, and those are the only ones I can find in that size combination.
Questions:
1) Will the extra wide 285 RS4s fit in the back without any modification (please say yes). Again, stock ZCP suspension.
2) Does this setup sound like an ideal combination given that I don't intend to modify the car any further? Basically want the best case setup with an otherwise stock ride.

phoosty wrote

Thread resurrection alert:
Newb to the forum, have a stock ZCP E92 that sees very occasional track time (swore to myself I would keep it stock and just drive it on the street, but old habits die hard).
Decided to get some track specific wheels and tires, and keep the stock ZCPs for the street.
Was initially going to get a 18x10 square setup, but after reading everything I could find on this forum and elsewhere, I decided on a staggered set of 18x9.5 + 18x10.5 Apex Arc-8, with the intention of going with 265/35/18 FT and 285/35/18 RR. Tires will be RS4s as I need to stay at a +200 treadwear rating, and those are the only ones I can find in that size combination.
Questions:
1) Will the extra wide 285 RS4s fit in the back without any modification (please say yes). Again, stock ZCP suspension.
2) Does this setup sound like an ideal combination given that I don't intend to modify the car any further? Basically want the best case setup with an otherwise stock ride.

I'm pretty sure the 285 RS4's will fit in the rear. They are not much wider than the 275 Maxxis RC-1's and I've run those in the rear without any issues (-2.5* rear camber).

In my opinion, the 265 RS4 is a bit too wide (9.8" tread width) for a 9.5" wheel. It would fit better on a 10" wheel (I'm running a square 10x18 setup with 265 RS4's right now). That said, you might want to consider getting a square 18x10.5 wheel setup and run a 275/285 staggered tire setup. The tread width on the RS4's are 10.2" and 10.6" respectively. I'm actually considering the same with my square 18x10.5 wheels. That lets you move to a square tire setup in the future if you decide you want more front grip.

macdude357 wrote

In my opinion, the 265 RS4 is a bit too wide (9.8" tread width) for a 9.5" wheel. It would fit better on a 10" wheel (I'm running a square 10x18 setup with 265 RS4's right now).

Good point on the fronts. Gonna remain in the 'staggered' camp for now, and put my faith in the engineers that designed the entire package accordingly.

Maybe the solution is to stay with the same wheels, and just size the tires down by one step, and run 255 ft + 275 rr, that gives me 9.5" and 10.2" tread, plus they're all lighter by a pound, plus they're a tick shorter and will gear me down a tiny bit. Sound like a reasonable trade-off, in exchange for a .3"-.4" tread width reduction?

phoosty wrote

Thread resurrection alert:
Newb to the forum, have a stock ZCP E92 that sees very occasional track time (swore to myself I would keep it stock and just drive it on the street, but old habits die hard).
Decided to get some track specific wheels and tires, and keep the stock ZCPs for the street.
Was initially going to get a 18x10 square setup, but after reading everything I could find on this forum and elsewhere, I decided on a staggered set of 18x9.5 + 18x10.5 Apex Arc-8, with the intention of going with 265/35/18 FT and 285/35/18 RR. Tires will be RS4s as I need to stay at a +200 treadwear rating, and those are the only ones I can find in that size combination.
Questions:
1) Will the extra wide 285 RS4s fit in the back without any modification (please say yes). Again, stock ZCP suspension.
2) Does this setup sound like an ideal combination given that I don't intend to modify the car any further? Basically want the best case setup with an otherwise stock ride.

Yes, this staggered configuration with the exact tires mentioned will bolt right up to the car. This has been a very popular and proven configuration for many years

macdude357 wrote

I'm pretty sure the 285 RS4's will fit in the rear. They are not much wider than the 275 Maxxis RC-1's and I've run those in the rear without any issues (-2.5* rear camber).

In my opinion, the 265 RS4 is a bit too wide (9.8" tread width) for a 9.5" wheel. It would fit better on a 10" wheel (I'm running a square 10x18 setup with 265 RS4's right now). That said, you might want to consider getting a square 18x10.5 wheel setup and run a 275/285 staggered tire setup. The tread width on the RS4's are 10.2" and 10.6" respectively. I'm actually considering the same with my square 18x10.5 wheels. That lets you move to a square tire setup in the future if you decide you want more front grip.

phoosty wrote

Good point on the fronts. Gonna remain in the 'staggered' camp for now, and put my faith in the engineers that designed the entire package accordingly.

Maybe the solution is to stay with the same wheels, and just size the tires down by one step, and run 255 ft + 275 rr, that gives me 9.5" and 10.2" tread, plus they're all lighter by a pound, plus they're a tick shorter and will gear me down a tiny bit. Sound like a reasonable trade-off, in exchange for a .3"-.4" tread width reduction?

There are several different options, and there isn't ONE right answer. It really comes down to how you answer the following questions:

• What tire brand and size will be used?
• Do you care about the ability to rotate wheels and tires?
• What suspension and alignment settings do you / will you have?
• What are your priorities for an aftermarket wheel and tire combo? (weight, price, seasonal tire budget, maximizing grip at all costs etc.)
• How will you enjoy your car? (Street only, dual duty, track only, W2W etc.)

18x10" ET25 Square - 275/35-18 is the most popular tire size for this wheel width. This is a direct fit, unless you have KW suspension (or one of the other few that compromise inner clearance up front) which requires a minimum of 5mm spacers up front. Many add 12mm spacers in the rear to get a more flush fitment, but this is certainly not required. 285/35-18 tires have also been used over the years, but they are a bit tall in terms of overall rolling diameter and typically lead to some light damage to your inner fender liners.

18x10.5" ET27/22 Square - 275/35-18 is still the most popular tire sizes used for this square fitment, and the added 1/2" of wheel width simply provides the tires with superior sidewall support over the 10" wheel. Many extreme summer tires, r-compounds and racing slicks run wider than your average street tire, therefore the 10.5" width is technically a better match. More sidewall support means more precise handling characteristics/feedback and less sidewall deflection under load. I run this setup personally on an E92 M3 with 275 NT01's.

If you are looking to maximize grip on all four corners of the car while staying square, you can run this wheel configuration with 295/30-18 tires as well. Serious track/race cars run this setup and it does require significant negative camber up front to clear the fenders.

There are then four different staggered configurations to choose from. Again, the "best" wheel configuration will depend on the factors mentioned above.

Front: 18x9.5" ET22 - 265/35-18
Rear: 18x10.5" ET27/22 - 285/35-18

Front: 18x10" ET25 - 275/35-18
Rear: 18x10.5" ET27/22 - 285/35-18

Front: 18x10" ET25 - 275/35-18
Rear: 18x11" ET25 - 295/35-18

Front: 18x10.5" ET22/27 - 275/35-18 or 285/30-18
Rear: 18x11" ET25 - 295/35-18 or 295/30-18

This is just glossing over each fitment at a high level, so if you (or anyone reading) would like to discuss a particular fitment in greater detail, just give us a shout. We also have fitment guides linked in our signature.

- Ryan

ApexRaceParts wrote

Front: 18x10.5" ET22/27 - 275/35-18 or 285/30-18
Rear: 18x11" ET25 - 295/35-18 or 295/30-18

Staggered should be 10.5 front and 11 rear

Square should be 10.5 all around

People getting 9.5 up front for a 'track set' are leaving a lot on the table.

SYT_Shadow wrote

People getting 9.5 up front for a 'track set' are leaving a lot on the table.

I'm glad you chimed in, have been considering your posts leading up to this, part of the reason I am opting for staggered.

To elaborate a bit on my specifics: this is *not* meant to be a track car or some balls-out racer. It is a street car, that I occasionally (1-2 times per year) take to (mainly) Laguna Seca for time trial type events. I have done this in the past on the stock ZCPs with PSS, and it was fine and fun, but I just want to take it up by one, and I mean only one notch, via a set of dedicated wheels with stickier tires (and a set of track brake pads that also get swapped in and out).

I do not want to mess with the car at all - no fender rolling, no fender liner 'relieving', no camber adjusting, no nothing. I also want to limit the tires to 200 treadwear for classification purposes. I realize this will never yield the fastest car, or lowest lap times, but it will keep the car as a nice, unmolested street ride which it is, 99% of the time.

So yes, on the one hand I want to get an awesome set of track-only tires and wheels, but on the other hand I want to limit the size to what will fit without any other adjustments. That all being said, is it still the case (in this case, with RS4 tires) that the more rubber you can cram under the fenders, the better off you are? 10" fronts (with 265s or 275s)? and 10.5" rears with 285s? Does the increase in contact patch more than offset the increased unsprung weight, and the increased gearing? What is the ideal compromise?

phoosty wrote

I'm glad you chimed in, have been considering your posts leading up to this, part of the reason I am opting for staggered.

To elaborate a bit on my specifics: this is *not* meant to be a track car or some balls-out racer. It is a street car, that I occasionally (1-2 times per year) take to (mainly) Laguna Seca for time trial type events. I have done this in the past on the stock ZCPs with PSS, and it was fine and fun, but I just want to take it up by one, and I mean only one notch, via a set of dedicated wheels with stickier tires (and a set of track brake pads that also get swapped in and out).

I do not want to mess with the car at all - no fender rolling, no fender liner 'relieving', no camber adjusting, no nothing. I also want to limit the tires to 200 treadwear for classification purposes. I realize this will never yield the fastest car, or lowest lap times, but it will keep the car as a nice, unmolested street ride which it is, 99% of the time.

So yes, on the one hand I want to get an awesome set of track-only tires and wheels, but on the other hand I want to limit the size to what will fit without any other adjustments. That all being said, is it still the case (in this case, with RS4 tires) that the more rubber you can cram under the fenders, the better off you are? 10" fronts (with 265s or 275s)? and 10.5" rears with 285s? Does the increase in contact patch more than offset the increased unsprung weight, and the increased gearing? What is the ideal compromise?

You should take a look at DogBone's thread:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158445

Yes, he's taken things to a whole other level but the bottom line is he runs 305 or 315 tires up front. So yes, I'd say the more tire you can fit under the fender, the more grip you'll have.

I'm still sticking by my original advice, with the caveat that if you do not have camber plates installed then fitting a 10.5" wheel might be an issue. I'd highly recommend getting a set of camber plates though. You can easily mark them for street and track settings and it only takes a few minutes to adjust them once you have the car jacked up and you are swapping on your track wheels anyhow. They will increase your front grip and keep you from killing your tires prematurely and don't really add any NVH.

My car is mostly stock. I have JRZ RS2 Coil overs, camber plates (-3.5*) and a BBK. No fender mods, rolling, etc. was needed to fit Maxxis RC-1 275/35/18 tires on 18x10.5 et 25 wheels up front. They rubbed the fender liners at full lock but that's not really an issue on the track.

My progression is a bit like yours. Started with staggered EC7 wheels with stock tires, added camber plates, added a set of dedicated track wheels (started with a square 18x10 set), regretted that and moved up to a square 18x10.5 set.

phoosty wrote

I'm glad you chimed in, have been considering your posts leading up to this, part of the reason I am opting for staggered.

To elaborate a bit on my specifics: this is *not* meant to be a track car or some balls-out racer. It is a street car, that I occasionally (1-2 times per year) take to (mainly) Laguna Seca for time trial type events. I have done this in the past on the stock ZCPs with PSS, and it was fine and fun, but I just want to take it up by one, and I mean only one notch, via a set of dedicated wheels with stickier tires (and a set of track brake pads that also get swapped in and out).

I do not want to mess with the car at all - no fender rolling, no fender liner 'relieving', no camber adjusting, no nothing. I also want to limit the tires to 200 treadwear for classification purposes. I realize this will never yield the fastest car, or lowest lap times, but it will keep the car as a nice, unmolested street ride which it is, 99% of the time.

So yes, on the one hand I want to get an awesome set of track-only tires and wheels, but on the other hand I want to limit the size to what will fit without any other adjustments. That all being said, is it still the case (in this case, with RS4 tires) that the more rubber you can cram under the fenders, the better off you are? 10" fronts (with 265s or 275s)? and 10.5" rears with 285s? Does the increase in contact patch more than offset the increased unsprung weight, and the increased gearing? What is the ideal compromise?

Glad to help

A 9.5/10.5 combo is very, very nice for occasional track and mostly street use. One could say that is the ultimate street setup.

I really like square setups (i have 3, 1 in 10" and 2 in 10.5" ) for several reasons, mainly they help reduce variables and when you're going through lots of tires you really need all the help you can get.

That said, last year we dropped under 1:40 in a 6mt e92 at Mid Ohio with RE71s on the ZCP wheels 255/275 and 9/10 widths. This setup was faster than my heatcycle and abused nt01s on square wheels.

If I had a single set of wheels for everything I'd maybe use the 9.5/10.5 setup you're discussing, definitely with re71 tires. These are pretty well mannered tires on the street and stick very very well.

Perhaps the biggest problem with a 9.5/10.5 setup is the tire selection. Unless you can get a 265/285 combo (this is the only thing that i'd really want to run on those wheels) then it's pointless. Perhaps the re71 is available in those sizes. If so i say go for it.

I would very strongly suggest camber plates. You can set front camber at -2 and 0 toe and rear -1.8 (forgot the toe but i can post it later) and have a wonderful due use setup. Without this you can blow through tires in a single day-ask me why I know. Forget about fitment, this is about preserving your tires' life

Thanks for the input guys.

SYT_Shadow wrote

I greatly prefer staggered setups for the street as well

Every time I drive a square setup to the track, which can be 10h away, I like the steering less than when I run a staggered OEM-ish setup.

Word

Though I think part of that is we tend to cram a bit more tire on our track wheels than is optimal for "feel" and many of the track tires add considerable stiffness and weight in the tire compared to say a Michelin street tire which can make them feel a bit wooden until they're pushed

Imma go back to wide wheel narrow(er) front tire for my next street setup, but use square widths, and just avoid curbs like death itself

Richbot wrote

Word

Though I think part of that is we tend to cram a bit more tire on our track wheels than is optimal for "feel" and many of the track tires add considerable stiffness and weight in the tire compared to say a Michelin street tire which can make them feel a bit wooden until they're pushed

Imma go back to wide wheel narrow(er) front tire for my next street setup, but use square widths, and just avoid curbs like death itself

That's a good point as well