Black 220 M wheel love

Even if driven on a racetrack by a pro, the "differences" probably wouldn't be noticeable.

MIAE93M3 wrote

Lots of m3 owners opting for zcp wheels. I did not like the fact that they were not forged aluminum and heavier than the 220M wheels. Enjoy the pics, I think the car turned out great.

Jerez black with black glossy powdercoated wheel.

The wheels are amazing in black, regardless of all the physics speak.

RedScytheM3 wrote

MIAE93M3 wrote

Lots of m3 owners opting for zcp wheels. I did not like the fact that they were not forged aluminum and heavier than the 220M wheels. Enjoy the pics, I think the car turned out great.

Jerez black with black glossy powdercoated wheel.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b75/fastaudi/IMG_8604_zpslk1tyw3f.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b75/fastaudi/IMG_8565_zpstycshlqj.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b75/fastaudi/IMG_8595_zpshz8yw1wi.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b75/fastaudi/IMG_8557_zpsshs93w0q.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b75/fastaudi/IMG_8655_zpsxeumtrex.jpg

The wheels are amazing in black, regardless of all the physics speak.

Agreed!

bmw monte carlo edition had oem 220 M black wheels so my choice was easy to do. If someone is hesitant to make them black like i did, just do it and you won't regret

EricSMG wrote

Eh, interesting and maybe true, but one random post without any data hardly justifies this claim.

How exactly does he know how the weight is distributed? And if true, how much does this actually affect inertia, exactly? Can we run the same formula with repeatable results? (Rhetorical questions as I highly doubt any of this can be answered). Plus, since the ZCPs are wider, all of that width is in the barrel, furthest from the hub....which contradicts the lower inertia claim (not saying they can't be lower, just that the width would complicate this).

The 220s are forged and lighter which means by all standard criteria they are the better wheel, looks and widths aside.

Given the fact that the wheel is 0.5" narrower at the point of highest inertia impact, I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money the radius of gyration is smaller on the 220M versus the 359M in addition to it being significantly lighter also. Then again, I'm just an old engineer having taken my first dynamics class 40 years ago, so..

CSBM5 wrote

Given the fact that the wheel is 0.5" narrower at the point of highest inertia impact, I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money the radius of gyration is smaller on the 220M versus the 359M in addition to it being significantly lighter also. Then again, I'm just an old engineer having taken my first dynamics class 40 years ago, so..

Eeeeexactly. There's no other way to skin this cat. Suggesting otherwise based on spoke thickness is.... silly.

Thank you.

EDIT: Had incorrect info before. Here is the corrected info:

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/partgrp?id=KG93-USA-02-2013-E92N-BMW-M3&mg=36

359M is 26.4/27.5 lbs F/R
220M is 23.6/25.4 F/R.

PACarGuy wrote

Sorry to burst your bubble, guys, but someone got it backwards.
it turns out the 220M wheels are heavier than the 359M's, and by 2.4-3.2 lbs each.

http://felgenkatalog.auto-treff.com/

359M is 26/26.8 lbs F/R
220M is 29.2 lbs.

So...yeah

This is incorrect. The wheels have been measured in the wheel thread long ago.

CSBM5 wrote

This is incorrect. The wheels have been measured in the wheel thread long ago.

Link? Because if you're talking about the Wheel Weight Comparison thread, I don't see anywhere in there where someone actually measured the 220M wheels w/o tires.

CSBM5 wrote

Given the fact that the wheel is 0.5" narrower at the point of highest inertia impact, I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money the radius of gyration is smaller on the 220M versus the 359M in addition to it being significantly lighter also. Then again, I'm just an old engineer having taken my first dynamics class 40 years ago, so..

Yes, obviously the rim is where you'd see a bigger effect in inertia, but we're talking about two different wheels. You still have to factor in the differences in design and construction of the two different wheel rims, plus the distribution/density of the material throughout the wheels (including the face, which will have an impact on Rg). I believe BBS made the ZCP wheels, and they generally do know what they're doing with wheel design. Ultimately, though, we're both guessing at it and the only way to know for sure is to measure angular acceleration under a known torque.

Once again, though, bit of an academic discussion anyway since none of us will ever be able to detect the difference on the road, and if I'm tracking, I'd still rather have more tire width under the car than less, and the wider rim allows for better (more even) pressure distribution on the contact patch.

PACarGuy wrote

Link? Because if you're talking about the Wheel Weight Comparison thread, I don't see anywhere in there where someone actually measured the 220M wheels w/o tires.

Hunt for it. This is relitigating a 7+ year old subject. That link you used has always been wrong and long ago proven false in prior threads.

FWIW, I can actually give a verified 220M wheel weight next week. I have a set of Apex EC-7s on the way for my everyday wheels, so I'll have 220Ms, free of tires, to weigh.

FWIW, I did weigh the 219M 18" wheels I have for my E91, and they are heavy for 18" wheels. The 8.5" one weighed 24.6lbs, and it appears to be a cast wheel.

CSBM5 wrote

Hunt for it. This is relitigating a 7+ year old subject. That link you used has always been wrong and long ago proven false in prior threads.

I did hunt, but couldn't find any verified measurement. I found this: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12313452&postcount=289
where IND said they found it in a search, but no source, and again that was with tires. Not saying the link is definitive either, but lacking a verified measurement, who's right? Will be interested to see your measurement.

PACarGuy wrote

Will be interested to see your measurement.

I'll be able to measure them late next week.

EAS weighed the 359M wheels and found 25.5 front and 28 rear. BMW quotes 26.5lbs front and 27.6lbs rear.

BMW's figures for the 220M are 23.6lbs fr and 25.1lbs rear. So BMW claims the 220M are 2.9lbs and 2.5bls lighter than the 359M. Over the years I've seen people claim "a bit over 2lbs per wheel" lighter on various forums. The weighed picture of the 220M must have been another forum if not this one.

I was pondering buying a new set of 359M wheels to replace the 220Ms for everyday use. However, I ended up going with Apex EC-7 in 9.5"x19" and 10.5"x19" size, race silver color. They're wider than the 359M and a good bit lighter at 22.9 and 23.9lbs.

They will be here next Wednesday according to UPS, and I have PS4S on order for next Thursday install. I'll post the 220M weights afterwards. I think I will make a specific thread with that prominently in the title, so it can be easily found in the future.

PACarGuy wrote

Once again, though, bit of an academic discussion anyway since none of us will ever be able to detect the difference on the road, and if I'm tracking, I'd still rather have more tire width under the car than less, and the wider rim allows for better (more even) pressure distribution on the contact patch.

This is/was precisely my point in reference to your earlier comments where you more or less stated that the ZCP has a lower inertia because of the spoke design. This is a silly thing to say given that the two wheels are the same diameter, one is lighter than the other, and one is also narrower than the other where it matters most. Further, you cannot definitively prove how much the spoke design affects the inertia - we can only measure the overall inertia and draw conclusions from that.

So, is it possible that the ZCP has less inertia? Sure, but that's a massive stretch based strictly on spoke design when the other much more important criteria suggest otherwise.

Further, in no other reality but your own does forged + lighter <> the better wheel all else equal. The specific construction of a cast wheel is never considered when compared against a forged wheel so, again, that's silly to argue.

If you want the wider wheel the ZCP is better. If you want a forged, lighter wheel the 220M is better. Looks are purely subjective but the 220M looks way better all day err day:)

If you're changing wheels why would you leave the narrow stock wheels up front anyway? Seems...derpy.

I've measured the weight of 220M and 219M on my own scales and they line up with what Chuck is linking to within a couple tenths. 220M front wheel is about 23.5, ~ 1 pound lighter than 219M front wheel, back wheel is slightly lighter (sub 25lb 219M vs. right at 25 for the 220M...but bathroom scale, so grain of salt)

I've not weighed the ZCP on my own scales

BBS did not make the ZCP wheels, no BBS stamp = no BBS, at least this century they stamp their ish.

220M - Fuchs
219M - BBS
260M - Some italian company I can't recall?
359M - I vaguely recall seeing this was a hungarian operation based on somebody's sleuthing on the stampings, but who cares, they're heavy and beautiful, if you want beautiful, use them, if you want light, don't EDIT: NJot hungarian, KAG Germany,I think this means it's a private company under capital investment control? Here's a photo of a back pad of an OEM ZCP for sale right now on this forum:

CSBM5 wrote

I'll be able to measure them late next week.

BMW's figures for the 220M are 23.6lbs fr and 25.1lbs rear. So BMW claims the 220M are 2.9lbs and 2.5bls lighter than the 359M. Over the years I've seen people claim "a bit over 2lbs per wheel" lighter on various forums. The weighed picture of the 220M must have been another forum if not this one.

Where did you find BMW's figures? I've been looking for this info but have only seen the link to the site I already posted above.

BMW lists most of their wheel weights in their parts fiche

They're usually pretty close to what gets measured in the wild - zum beispiel, 18x9 513M on the F80 is forged and 1.7 kg lighter than 18x8.5 219M, which lines up with what people have measured on in real life (right at 20lb for the 513M vs. 24 ish for 219M)

realoem.com

Get on it, it's a good train

Some fun other examples:

Alpina B6 front 20x8.5: 32.5lb

i8 optional sport pack wheel or whatever, 20x8.5: 25.3

fun times

EricSMG wrote

This is/was precisely my point in reference to your earlier comments where you more or less stated that the ZCP has a lower inertia because of the spoke design. This is a silly thing to say given that the two wheels are the same diameter, one is lighter than the other, and one is also narrower than the other where it matters most. Further, you cannot definitively prove how much the spoke design affects the inertia - we can only measure the overall inertia and draw conclusions from that.

So, is it possible that the ZCP has less inertia? Sure, but that's a massive stretch based strictly on spoke design when the other much more important criteria suggest otherwise.

I didn't originate the claim that the Rotational Inertia of the 220M is higher, though I did repeat it and admittedly should have done more research to verify the claim. I did not, however, state that the ZCP has lower inertia solely because of the spoke design. I said that it seems fairly evident that the face of the ZCP has more mass concentrated nearer the hub, and that face design can contribute to (lower) rotational inertia. That's just physics. And, no, I cannot definitively calculate the Rotational Inertia of either wheel, and I've already stated that. But as I mentioned before, if we were sufficiently motivated (which I definitely am not since I really don't care that much) we can measure and compare the angular acceleration of each. Until then we're all speculating.

EricSMG wrote

Further, in no other reality but your own does forged + lighter <> the better wheel all else equal. The specific construction of a cast wheel is never considered when compared against a forged wheel so, again, that's silly to argue.

Key phrase being "all else equal". Which, as I stated but you conveniently left out, is not the case here. Two different wheels, two different manufacturers, two different designs and manufacturing processes. For example, BBS and others make cast wheels using flow forming processes that end up with strength and weight properties similar to forging in some cases (and certainly good enough for most drivers including those who race), without the same cost. So unless it's a pure apples-to-apples comparison, simply saying "forged is better" is not true.

EricSMG wrote

If you want the wider wheel the ZCP is better. If you want a forged, lighter wheel the 220M is better. Looks are purely subjective but the 220M looks way better all day err day:)

For performance, wider is always better, unless you're drag racing. If saying you are on a forged, lighter wheel is important to you, then yes, 220M may be better (I'll await confirmation of the actual wheel weights) but not for any actual performance or longevity benefits over the 359M. Either way, I'm lucky enough not to have to choose since I like and have both!

Richbot wrote

If you're changing wheels why would you leave the narrow stock wheels up front anyway? Seems...derpy.

I've measured the weight of 220M and 219M on my own scales and they line up with what Chuck is linking to within a couple tenths. 220M front wheel is about 23.5, ~ 1 pound lighter than 219M front wheel, back wheel is slightly lighter (sub 25lb 219M vs. right at 25 for the 220M...but bathroom scale, so grain of salt)

I've not weighed the ZCP on my own scales

BBS did not make the ZCP wheels, no BBS stamp = no BBS, at least this century they stamp their ish.

220M - Fuchs
219M - BBS
260M - Some italian company I can't recall?
359M - I vaguely recall seeing this was a hungarian operation based on somebody's sleuthing on the stampings, but who cares, they're heavy and beautiful, if you want beautiful, use them, if you want light, don't EDIT: NJot hungarian, KAG Germany,I think this means it's a private company under capital investment control? Here's a photo of a back pad of an OEM ZCP for sale right now on this forum:

Thanks for the correction. I came across one post that claimed they were made by BBS. Seems the info is a bit all over the place.

Richbot wrote

BMW lists most of their wheel weights in their parts fiche

They're usually pretty close to what gets measured in the wild - zum beispiel, 18x9 513M on the F80 is forged and 1.7 kg lighter than 18x8.5 219M, which lines up with what people have measured on in real life (right at 20lb for the 513M vs. 24 ish for 219M)

realoem.com

Get on it, it's a good train

Yep, it's usually very close in my experience. Not sure why this agenda has cropped up to attempt to discredit the 220M weights/claim they weigh more than the hunky 359M/and I guess even think BMW is wrong with their own data?

Another example: E39 M5, rear wheel 9.5x18 -- BMW fiche claims 26.2lbs, I've weighed the the wheel at 26.4lbs with a valve stem and cap installed. Close enough.

CSBM5 wrote

Yep, it's usually very close in my experience. Not sure why this agenda has cropped up to attempt to discredit the 220M weights/claim they weigh more than the hunky 359M/and I guess even think BMW is wrong with their own data?

Another example: E39 M5, rear wheel 9.5x18 -- BMW fiche claims 26.2lbs, I've weighed the the wheel at 26.4lbs with a valve stem and cap installed. Close enough.

No agenda. Just came across conflicting data that seemed to be from an oft-linked source, so was trying to correct what I thought was a misconception. And since I didn't know where to find BMW fiche, it was kinda hard for me to know what BMW's own data says. If I am wrong, I am wrong. No big deal.

PACarGuy wrote

for performance, wider is always better, unless you're drag racing. If saying you are on a forged, lighter wheel is important to you, then yes, 220M may be better (I'll await confirmation of the actual wheel weights) but not for any actual performance or longevity benefits over the 359M. Either way, I'm lucky enough not to have to choose since I like and have both!

Not black and white.

If you're running the same exact front tire (make, model, width) then no, wider is not better assuming the tire is sufficiently supported by both wheels.

In this case, lighter is better than wider.

The ZCP and non-ZCP cars came with the same tires. Therefore, the lighter 220M is the better wheel in that case if you want to get ultra technical.

Good discussion:)