Mysteriously Running Rich

whens the last time the pre-cat o2 sensors were replaced?

SFCM3 wrote

whens the last time the pre-cat o2 sensors were replaced?

No way of knowing. I have notes from talking to the previous owner in detail about the service records, nothing about o2 sensors. I'm at 80k, for $65 each maybe it can't hurt to replace?

Possible the tune is preventing the o2 sensors from throwing a CEL?

The tune will prevent the POST CAT o2 sensors from triggering a code, but not the PRE CAT o2. From what i have gathered from my friends m3s(as well as non-M e9x bmws), replacing the pre-cat o2 sensors made a huge change in the way the car ran, as well as gas mileage. If you feel the car is running rich, it may be worth while to replace them.

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-17039-Oxygen-Original-Equipment/dp/B000JZEXG8/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=17039+bosch&qid=1552067453&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

I can check the lambda on my car through the awron gauge and let you know what it is on mine if you have something to compare it to. But I think you're gonna find daily driving a catless s65 is too embarrassing, it was for me anyway. Maybe I'm getting too old, but couldn't stand the smell...

SAMM3Y wrote

I can check the lambda on my car through the awron gauge and let you know what it is on mine if you have something to compare it to. But I think you're gonna find daily driving a catless s65 is too embarrassing, it was for me anyway. Maybe I'm getting too old, but couldn't stand the smell...

I'm 36. I'm semi-concerned with how I'm perceived, I suppose.

I just drove to an appointment, I'm parked downtown in a pretty progressive city (electric car parking, no straws, bike share, etc) and I got out of my car and tried to get away from it pretty quick so people didn't see me getting out of it. Hopefully they think it's some old beater pickup truck parked a few spots away. Or maybe they'll think its the Grand Prix happening a few blocks away.

Bottom line is you are catless, this car has some weird aerodynamics under the car that actually pulls exhaust fumes through the trunk and into/through the back seat. Unless you put at least 200 cell cats back on it the smell will never go away. Some folks are more sensitive to it but if you smell it only one way to fix it.
Throw a couple of old shirts in the trunk and drive around for a day, they will smell horrible.
Honestly I have been looking at adding 2 cats behind the X on the gintani but cats that are rated for a SC car are 900 bucks

Yep I'm 35, I was thinking more of having friends and acquaintances in a car that smells like that.. Kawasak100 actually makes a lot of sense.. I searched forever for an exhaust leak in my car because of cabin smell even with the windows up.. even with the hfc's it smells a little.

Not an expert in this but, if your running super rich, wouldn't there be a big black cloud of exhaust at wot/redline?

I have the AA x-pipe and it stinks if I stop with the windows down. Windows up or moving, I never smell it.

I run test pipes and had them welded to the stock X-pipe. I barely notice a smell at all, and only if i'm standing behind the car at idle.

jdamore wrote

Not an expert in this but, if your running super rich, wouldn't there be a big black cloud of exhaust at wot/redline?

I have the AA x-pipe and it stinks if I stop with the windows down. Windows up or moving, I never smell it.

I've not noticed anything in particular aside from spot on my back bumper and tailpipes:

This after about 60 miles (I know my skin is dry, i don't know why, I know some of you just cringed because I dragged my finger across my dirty clearcoat).

I took the car out today to try and clean it out a bit and it feels quite underpowered. It still moves, and sounds smooth but it's definitely a little doggish.

Plan of action:

1. Retune + spark plugs
2. Front o2 sensors
3. Back to shop for more diagnosis
4. Add cats back on

Will report back. As usual, some of you've been helpful, some of you have not

MPower7 wrote

I run test pipes and had them welded to the stock X-pipe. I barely notice a smell at all, and only if i'm standing behind the car at idle.

This was my previous setup. Changed it out because I had exhaust leaks that kept springing up.

Props for the profile image. Listening to Terrapin Station right now, actually.

SAMM3Y wrote

Yep I'm 35, I was thinking more of having friends and acquaintances in a car that smells like that.. Kawasak100 actually makes a lot of sense.. I searched forever for an exhaust leak in my car because of cabin smell even with the windows up.. even with the hfc's it smells a little.

All my friends and family are car people, my female friends won't know about it, I will somehow solve this within a couple days.

My sister will have to ride in it tomorrow but I'll just keep the windows up with the AC recirculated. But she grew up watching her older brothers tear up the neighborhood in loud ass cars like a bunch of hillbillies so she shouldn't be surprised though. I made it clear on Facebook six months ago i was relapsing into a car idiot after years of untuned luxury cars or no car (which in and of itself is a whole different snobbery) for while.

cjm41 wrote

This was my previous setup. Changed it out because I had exhaust leaks that kept springing up.

Props for the profile image. Listening to Terrapin Station right now, actually.

Very cool, I go to Phils restaurant all the time here in the San Francisco Bay Area called Terrapin Crossroads!

Lmfao


Once the secondary's are gone
You lose brain cells if you back into a garage lol

Little update:

Yesterday I took the car to my brother's house, he's a tech, hooked the car up to some snapon computer and we verified it was running rich. Also, sitting in the car with it running for a bit, it seemed something similar to cold start would cycle on. The car would get loud and suddenly start running really rich. It sounded just like cold start except the car was at operating temp, it was 80 degrees out, and the car had been running for 10-15 minutes.

We also verified the o2 sensors were fine.

Fast forward to this morning, I re-tuned the car with a fresh Alpine tune that arrived yesterday (nothing against BPM).

The car doesn't appear to be running (as) rich now. It is definitely more tolerable, although I'm not convinced it isn't running rich still. It's at a point now I'd be willing to buy that this is how it smells without cats. May be a bit much for a DD but I'll mull it over for a couple days.

What I can say is that the car is running a lot better than it ever has, smooth and more powerful. It may be the new ECU flash followed by the new tune, I do not know when the last time the car was updated, previous owner had the car tuned and I didn't get the cable or files with it.

This week I'm going to replace the spark plugs. I've got to do valve cover gaskets and a fuel tank breather valve anyway, so it makes sense to hit the spark plugs while I'm in there. I don't expect this will solve anything more, but it'll give me peace of mind if I ultimately decide to shell out money for HFCs.

Someone mentioned under car aero and fumes being routed into the cabin.

https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/police-officer-passes-wheel-due-carbon-monoxide-exposure-49001298

Be careful catless dudes.

It's completely normal for the car to enter what sounds like a semi cat warmup sequence when it has been sitting for awhile depending on temperature. Bone stock cars do this.

Our software is never richer than stock, at any point in time. At idle and PT, it runs lambda 1 = complete burn. At full throttle, it runs less rich than stock.

Your plan of action to change tunes and your shop stating that it needs a retune is smoke and mirrors.

Stating that it's running rich without even checking the air fuel ratio and getting actual data to support that claim makes absolutely no sense.

Any shop that recommends changing tunes to correct an issue like this doesn't have a clue what they are doing. These cars are target based systems. They will achieve the target that is set. If you wanted to diagnose you should flash to stock and check mixtures then. Tuning to correct an existing problem (without even verifying it with actual data) is absolutely ridiculous.

Any difference in smell at the moment would be simply due to flashing or adaptations being cleared, unless the new tune you've flashed to is now running it leaner than lambda which would be less safe and raise combustion temperatures unnecessarially.

It pains me to see people approach things with assumptions and then form a plan of action not based on any real data.

BPMSport wrote

It's completely normal for the car to enter a semi cat warmup sequence when it has been sitting for awhile depending on temperature. Bone stock cars do this.

Our software is never richer than stock, at any point in time. At idle and PT, it runs lambda 1 = complete burn. At full throttle, it runs less rich than stock.

Your plan of action to change tunes and your shop stating that it needs a retune is smoke and mirrors.

Stating that it's running rich without even checking the air fuel ratio and getting actual data to support that claim makes absolutely no sense.

Any shop that recommends changing tunes to correct an issue like this doesn't have a clue what they are doing. These cars are target based systems. They will achieve the target that is set. If you wanted to diagnose you should flash to stock and check mixtures then. Tuning to correct an existing problem (without even verifying it with actual data is absolutely ridiculous.

Any difference in smell at the moment would be simply due to flashing or adaptations being cleared.

It pains me to see people approach things with assumptions and then form a plan of action not based on any real data.

Your input is noted. Thank you. So- if we're going to be critical here, I changed tunes because when I contacted BPM and asked them about transferring the tune to my name and out of the previous owners name, you guys wanted a lot of money. It gave me a bad feeling about your approach to customer service.

I get the feeling had I paid the transfer cost and retained a BPM tune, you'd not be as publicly critical of my approach.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. There are a number of other issues that have been corrected on the car since re-flashing re-tuning to include my rev limiter during warmup now works, despite being told by BPM that the warmup rev limiter had not been removed, the car is running a lot smoother and stronger. Whether or not the car starts running rich again remains to be seen. What corrected the richness, at this point, I don't know. Was the shop right or wrong? I don't know.

What I can tell you now is the car is running much better.

I did not, and will not, criticize your tune. I'm willing to agree that it may be a byproduct of re-flashing then re-tuning. There is no need to be defensive of your tune and there is no need to be critical of me or the trusted shop I chose to work with.

Since we're critiquing each other, and all.

cjm41 wrote

BPMSport wrote

It's completely normal for the car to enter a semi cat warmup sequence when it has been sitting for awhile depending on temperature. Bone stock cars do this.

Our software is never richer than stock, at any point in time. At idle and PT, it runs lambda 1 = complete burn. At full throttle, it runs less rich than stock.

Your plan of action to change tunes and your shop stating that it needs a retune is smoke and mirrors.

Stating that it's running rich without even checking the air fuel ratio and getting actual data to support that claim makes absolutely no sense.

Any shop that recommends changing tunes to correct an issue like this doesn't have a clue what they are doing. These cars are target based systems. They will achieve the target that is set. If you wanted to diagnose you should flash to stock and check mixtures then. Tuning to correct an existing problem (without even verifying it with actual data is absolutely ridiculous.

Any difference in smell at the moment would be simply due to flashing or adaptations being cleared.

It pains me to see people approach things with assumptions and then form a plan of action not based on any real data.

Your input is noted. Thank you. So- if we're going to be critical here, I changed tunes because when I contacted BPM and asked them about transferring the tune to my name and out of the previous owners name, you guys wanted a lot of money. It gave me a bad feeling about your approach to customer service.

I get the feeling had I paid the transfer cost and retained a BPM tune, you'd not be as publicly critical of my approach.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. There are a number of other issues that have been corrected on the car since re-flashing re-tuning to include my rev limiter during warmup now works, despite being told by BPM that the warmup rev limiter had not been removed, the car is running a lot smoother and stronger.

I'm significantly happier today with an Alpine tune today than I was with a BPM tune yesterday.

Since we're critiquing each other, and all.

Sounds like you didn't have our software installed at all since the warm up rev limiter wasn't working. Our software only builds on the factory limiter and makes it limit further over the stock cold limiter. We were the first to introduce this feature back in 2012.

This confirms that our software wasn't even loaded to your vehicle. I would expect that you'd see an improvement with a tune on a Catless car.

For the record, we are not critiquing you. We have tuned thousands of cars in 50 countries around the world and have simply stated facts and the proper steps to take to confirm what you believe is happening, with your nose as the measuring instrument. We also included some details of our targeted fuel mixtures in idle, part throttle, and full throttle operation. Since our software doesn't appear to have been installed anyway, it's a moot point.

I'm sorry you feel that purchasing a cable and transferring support into your name is an indication of bad customer service.

Hope you enjoy the car and we would still recommend following what we've previously said with stock software loaded to determine if you are running rich to begin with.

if u do not have a way to check fuel trim, do it the old fashioned way and remove spark plugs. see if any specific cylinder looks like its running rich. i have seen many s65 with leaky fuel injectors....

BPMSport wrote

Sounds like you didn't have our software installed at all since the warm up rev limiter wasn't working. Our software only builds on the factory limiter and makes it limit further over the stock cold limiter. We were the first to introduce this feature back in 2012.

This confirms that our software wasn't even loaded to your vehicle. I would expect that you'd see an improvement with a tune on a Catless car.

For the record, we are not critiquing you. We have tuned thousands of cars in 50 countries around the world and have simply stated facts and the proper steps to take to confirm what you believe is happening, with your nose as the measuring instrument. We also included some details of our targeted fuel mixtures in idle, part throttle, and full throttle operation. Since our software doesn't appear to have been installed anyway, it's a moot point.

Hope you enjoy the car and we would still recommend following what we've previously said with stock software loaded to determine if you are running rich to begin with.

Firstly, my brother (I trust him) who is a master tech with every cert under the sun used his $6,000 Snapon Verus Pro to tell me the car was running rich. I didn't ask him for tons of details on what all of the numbers and meters on the screen meant. It was his wife's birthday and he was on his way out he was kind enough to give me 15 mins of his time on his way out because I was concerned about my car and wanted to at least verify it was, in fact, running rich. He verified it was running rich and that my o2 sensors were not the issue pretty quick and then had to go.

I can assure you BPM verified via email that my VIN was tuned. I was even provided with what the tune consisted of.

I can assure you I was not running primary cats and was not getting a CEL and not throwing any codes.

I can also assure you I may or may not have personally verified the 155 mph speed limiter was removed.

I'm willing to bet something was amiss. It wasn't the tune itself and I never have called into question the quality of your tune or BPM's reputation. In fact, I went out of my way a number of times to state i had no reason to believe it was the BPM tune.

I'm not quite sure why you guys got so damn defensive and took to criticizing me and my shop.

Again, your input it appreciated. Anytime a trusted vendor jumps on here to provide valuable insight at no cost to anyone it benefits us all.

I would suggest maybe toning down the criticism and defensiveness a bit though.

cjm41 wrote

BPMSport wrote

It's completely normal for the car to enter a semi cat warmup sequence when it has been sitting for awhile depending on temperature. Bone stock cars do this.

Our software is never richer than stock, at any point in time. At idle and PT, it runs lambda 1 = complete burn. At full throttle, it runs less rich than stock.

Your plan of action to change tunes and your shop stating that it needs a retune is smoke and mirrors.

Stating that it's running rich without even checking the air fuel ratio and getting actual data to support that claim makes absolutely no sense.

Any shop that recommends changing tunes to correct an issue like this doesn't have a clue what they are doing. These cars are target based systems. They will achieve the target that is set. If you wanted to diagnose you should flash to stock and check mixtures then. Tuning to correct an existing problem (without even verifying it with actual data is absolutely ridiculous.

Any difference in smell at the moment would be simply due to flashing or adaptations being cleared.

It pains me to see people approach things with assumptions and then form a plan of action not based on any real data.

Your input is noted. Thank you. So- if we're going to be critical here, I changed tunes because when I contacted BPM and asked them about transferring the tune to my name and out of the previous owners name, you guys wanted a lot of money. It gave me a bad feeling about your approach to customer service.

I get the feeling had I paid the transfer cost and retained a BPM tune, you'd not be as publicly critical of my approach.

Thank you for contributing to the thread. There are a number of other issues that have been corrected on the car since re-flashing re-tuning to include my rev limiter during warmup now works, despite being told by BPM that the warmup rev limiter had not been removed, the car is running a lot smoother and stronger. Whether or not the car starts running rich again remains to be seen. What corrected the richness, at this point, I don't know. Was the shop right or wrong? I don't know.

What I can tell you now is the car is running much better.

I did not, and will not, criticize your tune. I'm willing to agree that it may be a byproduct of re-flashing then re-tuning. There is no need to be defensive of your tune and there is no need to be critical of me or the trusted shop I chose to work with.

Since we're critiquing each other, and all.

wow, they didn't let you transfer the name for a tune even though the car changed owners? That is cheap as shit. More reasons to go Alpine.