E90 170k rod bearing question

$1000 in parts. So $1900 in labor. It’s an 8 hour job typically. A mechanic who has done a bunch of them might be able to do it in 6-7 hours. A DIYer for the first time could take 12. The OP is paying about $225 an hour, which seems high to me. I live in NH but don’t know shop rates because I can’t afford them. I DIY.

pbonsalb wrote

$1000 in parts. So $1900 in labor. It’s an 8 hour job typically. A mechanic who has done a bunch of them might be able to do it in 6-7 hours. A DIYer for the first time could take 12. The OP is paying about $225 an hour, which seems high to me. I live in NH but don’t know shop rates because I can’t afford them. I DIY.

The place I’m using is Ultimate Bimmer Service in Nashua NH.

Might be more with oil pan Gasket + oil and filter?

I thought it was expensive myself. I had another shop quote $2000, but they wanted to do leak down test, and compression test before doing the bearings. Which is probably an extra $500..

I’m okay with the price if I don’t need a fkn rebuild.

definitely do the motor mounts as well.

Lots of high quality pics of the crank when the bearings come out and this forum will be happy to give you a second opinion

bmwpower603 wrote

The place I’m using is Ultimate Bimmer Service in Nashua NH.

Might be more with oil pan Gasket + oil and filter?

I thought it was expensive myself. I had another shop quote $2000, but they wanted to do leak down test, and compression test before doing the bearings. Which is probably an extra $500..

I’m okay with the price if I don’t need a fkn rebuild.

BMW recommends you replace a bunch of bolts on the oil pan etc. If they are doing all of that, then the price can go up. I bought a few spares JIC and reused all of the oil pan bolts. No need to replace unless you damage one.

Gasket is not expensive. Oil and filter is not terrible either. I needed a bottle of PS fluid and new washers for the banjo bolts - but that is not expensive either. I assume you will need new motor mounts and bolts, but that is also not crazy $$.

Typical shop rate ~$120/hr where I was living. It took me about 12-14 hours on jack stands in my garage. Savings in labor paid for my 2 new digital torque wrenches and all of the other little tools I bought. With a hoist and experience, 8 hours is reasonable.

Quick look:

BE Bearings, ARP bolts and 2 motor mounts = $970
Gasket = $30
Oil and filter = $133
PS Fluid = $16
Spare pan bolts and other consumables = $30
Oil pickup gaskets = $12
Shop supplies = $30

Total parts: ~$1,221 plus any shipping

8 hours labor ~$1,000

So, ~$2,221 plus shop the shop's markup on parts. $2,500 seems about the maximum that you should have to pay for this service (assuming $125/hr labor rate).

Cheers,

tdott wrote

If you think those bearings will look "ok", then your opinion isn't worth much to me. I'm willing to bet there is a lot of cooper showing.

Saying "a tad more open", when we are talking 1/1000th of an inch that matter, shows your level of knowledge on the subject, or lack there of.

BMW Published Numbers, they don't state which bearing it is for:
Minimum clearance: 0.0004 inch
Nominal clearance: 0.0009 inch
Maximum clearance: 0.0013 inch

088/9 measured clearance:
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00150 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance: 0.00060 - 0.00210 inch

702/3 measured clearance:
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00150 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance: 0.00115 - 0.00200 inch

What does a tad more open mean? Is that a technical term or your opinion again?

Source: http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/index.php/Engine_Specs_-_S65_Rod_Bearings#Rod_Bearing_Clearance

Edit:
Here is some more spoon fed info:
ACL-H-STD
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00190 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance: 0.00160 - 0.00235 inch

ACL-HX-STD
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00290 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance: 0.00240 - 0.00330 inch

VAC Clevite Bearings
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00210 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance: 0.00160 - 0.00220 inch

BE Bearings:
Nominal Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.00235 inch
Bearing Clearance Variance : 0.00180 - 0.00280 inch
*BE Bearings are the only ones measured and binned to have a better chance at achieving closest to target clearance, otherwise you can be on either end of those measurements.

Sorry this will be boring for the rest of the crowd but appreciate if you can help me understand how you come to your numbers.

ACL own specs in mm
Shaft 51.975 - 51.991. Housing 56.000 - 56.013. HX Shell 1.977 - 1.985
Min: 56.000 – 51.991 – 2x1.985 = 0.039mm / 0.00153 inch
Max: 56.013 – 51.975 – 2x1.977 = 0.084mm / 0.00331 inch
Hence FWIW ACL Nominal clearance would end up on (0.084+0.039)/2 = 0.0615mm / 0.00242 inch i.e. fairly close to Clevite's rule of thumb, 0.0025 inch for our 2 inch crank diameter.
BE are using their own tighter shaft spec based on measured cranks. Using this ACL HX would tighten up to 0.0413 – 0.0805mm, with Nominal 0.06085mm / 0.0024 inch.
- Where does the 0.061 – 0.084mm / 0.0024 – 0.0033 inch come from?

BE clearance, according to their web page numbers again using a tigher shaft spec:
Min clearance: 56.000 – 51.9887 – 2x1.9939 = 0.0234mm
Max clearance: 56.013 – 51.9786 – 2x1.9812 = 0.0721mm
Nominal: (0.0721 + 0.00234)/2 = 0.0477 / 0.00188 inch

BE’s measured/binned parts clearance (I’m assuming (1.9812+1.9939)/2 = 1.9875)
Min clearance: 56.000 – 51.9887 – 2x1.9875 = 0.0363mm / 0.00143 inch
Max clearance: 56.013 – 51.9786 – 2x1.9875 = 0.0594mm / 0.00233 inch
Nominal: (0.0594 + 0.0363)/2 = 0.04785mm / 0.00188 inch
Don’t get me wrong, BE’s binning to narrow the clearance spec is obviously great but:
- Where does the 0.0457 – 0.0711mm / 0.0018 – 0.0028 inch come from?

088/089 vs 702/703
You can rund the calculations your self, using BE’s measured shell numbers will end up with:
088/089: 0.0057 – 0.0365mm
702/703: 0.0133 – 0.039mm. (i.e. mentioned “tad” more open, and turns out to follow BMW’s own 0.010 – 0.035 quite well)

Cheers

Helmsman wrote

Sorry this will be boring for the rest of the crowd but appreciate if you can help me understand how you come to your numbers.

All numbers are from the source link I provided.

Since in a perfect world rod bearings should be sized and measured on a bench while assembling an engine that's what engine builders typically do if the parts and tools to do so are available. I trust the measurements of an actual set of bearings from a trusted engine builder such as rcollins more than a manufacturer specs. Esp over BMW.

I'd measure them myself if I had the tools to do so accurately.

I’ve looked at a lot of posts regarding the rod bearing wear, and failure rate.

The crank seems to hold up pretty well for the wear, and tear, on most bearings. Even the bearings I’ve seen that are mostly copper have not scored the crank..

This seems like good news.

My guess is Turner didn't want to slap bearings on an engine with that kind of mileage and tbh if/when my engine hits that kind of mileage I would be obliged to do a full rebuild too. Turner wouldn't want you coming back in a few k miles with other serious problems blaming it on their work. It's not worth it to them... $10k for a full rebuild isn't terrible, especially if it's done by Turner, the last thing you want to do is f the block on an S65..

SAMM3Y wrote

My guess is Turner didn't want to slap bearings on an engine with that kind of mileage and tbh if/when my engine hits that kind of mileage I would be obliged to do a full rebuild too. Turner wouldn't want you coming back in a few k miles with other serious problems blaming it on their work. It's not worth it to them... $10k for a full rebuild isn't terrible, especially if it's done by Turner, the last thing you want to do is f the block on an S65..

Here’s the quote lol

smyles wrote

Here's my advice: enjoy the car.

The RB craze only lives due to a) vendors, who profit from this craze, and b) folks who gave $$$ to vendors and have to justify the expense.
It's like a support group, they cannot act or admit otherwise.

The problem here are that comments like that are most likely incorrect (false). We're a vendor who sells them, and we don't do it. I haven't seen any other vendor do it either. I don't think you'll find any other vendors in the last three years doing it either. But we definitely appreciate people who say this, create lots of debate and traffic in these threads, and help us sell bearings whether they know it or not. We appreciate your support.

bmwpower603 wrote

I’ve looked at a lot of posts regarding the rod bearing wear, and failure rate.

The crank seems to hold up pretty well for the wear, and tear, on most bearings. Even the bearings I’ve seen that are mostly copper have not scored the crank..

This seems like good news.

The babbitt and backing materials are very much softer than the crank journals. The crank journals are properly heat treated and surface hardened. They are really quite tough.

If the bearing does not actually spin in the rod, there is a good chance the crank will be just fine even if the bearings are quite bad.

My 0.02 is don't bother with the Rod bearings. If the rod bearings were going to go, it would have went already. To spend $3,000 to mitigate a risk with less than 5% probability on a car that's worth just over $10,000 is hard to justify. Enjoy the car!

Thik wrote

My 0.02 is don't bother with the Rod bearings. If the rod bearings were going to go, it would have went already. To spend $3,000 to mitigate a risk with less than 5% probability on a car that's worth just over $10,000 is hard to justify. Enjoy the car!

Do not listen to this fool's logic that "if they haven't gone yet, you are safe" plus the added "5%" completely made up statistic. The answer might not be to get the bearings done (ex/ sell the car and go lower mileage or something), however, this idiotic logic is false.

wfdeacon88 wrote

Do not listen to this fool's logic that "if they haven't gone yet, you are safe" plus the added "5%" completely made up statistic. The answer might not be to get the bearings done (ex/ sell the car and go lower mileage or something), however, this idiotic logic is false.

Easy on the person attack there buddy. Okay so what would you say the probability of RB seizing on a car with 170K miles? And at what value of the car would spending $ on bearings become unjustified?

Thik wrote

wfdeacon88 wrote

Do not listen to this fool's logic that "if they haven't gone yet, you are safe" plus the added "5%" completely made up statistic. The answer might not be to get the bearings done (ex/ sell the car and go lower mileage or something), however, this idiotic logic is false.

Easy on the person attack there buddy. Okay so what would you say the probability of RB seizing on a car with 170K miles? And at what value of the car would spending $ on bearings become unjustified?

That largely depends on what the car is worth to the owner. Look at most of the members and the tens of thousands of dollars they spend that could come close to equalling the value of the car. Just saying...

We are passionate about our rod bearings!

Thik wrote

wfdeacon88 wrote

Do not listen to this fool's logic that "if they haven't gone yet, you are safe" plus the added "5%" completely made up statistic. The answer might not be to get the bearings done (ex/ sell the car and go lower mileage or something), however, this idiotic logic is false.

Easy on the person attack there buddy. Okay so what would you say the probability of RB seizing on a car with 170K miles? And at what value of the car would spending $ on bearings become unjustified?

It's just not responsible or a nice thing to do to give advice that isn't accurate. The logic in your post was inaccurate.. the more miles driven on original bearings means a much higher chance of failure, not the opposite as you stated. Additionally, while it's a cheaper used price he paid, that doesn't mean that $12K isn't a lot of money and it would probably cost equal to that at least, to find a replacement motor and install it if it did have a bearing spin. I didn't say it's his best option to replace the bearings since other options exist, but it's definitely playing a very expensive dice game to not address it. Go look at the thread with Rod bearing failures.... many and most are higher mileage, some lower, but it proves, these are not safe to assume they are fine just because they made it to 170K.

Thik wrote

Easy on the person attack there buddy. Okay so what would you say the probability of RB seizing on a car with 170K miles? ...

There could be an M3 with 1.000.000 miles and they would still call for RB change. It's a religion.

I like to think of rod bearings like climate change: it will impact everyone but a lot of individuals won't actually acknowledge it's real until it effects them directly.

If you can get out ahead of the issue and do something preventatively, you should.

SoCalRPM wrote

I like to think of rod bearings like climate change: it will impact everyone but a lot of individuals won't actually acknowledge it's real until it effects them directly.

If you can get out ahead of the issue and do something preventatively, you should.

um.... climate change is not real, and nobody has been affected by it, because it's not real. Rod bearings have failed so many times that it's clearly not just a hoax. Weekly, just on this forum, we see posts about spun bearings grenading engines... low and higher mileage. All sorts of conditions and cars. So your analogy is terrible.

OMG we went from rod bearing mania to global warming arguments. Man has this gone off track.