Aftermarket Rod Bearings Spun

deansbimmer wrote

Don't mean to derail the thread....But a shop's image is only as good as the representative representing it. Evolve enjoys a fantastic reputation but like almost every other shop out there, the founder who built that reputation based on knowledge and experience usually isn't the one doing the labor once they're big enough to enjoy such a reputation. The tech on that video is simply incorrect. Unfortunately, the majority of RB's being replaced by well known RB shops, are being replaced by techs who really don't understand what's going on. Furthermore, most of the videos being pushed around are sourced from these types of mechanics. Of course there are some exceptions but the truly knowledgeable sources are usually too busy to make videos.

Example 1: A customer who just had his bearings done by a much larger, more well known, highly reputable shop brought me his M3 because within 200 miles the rod was knocking. Upon disassembly I found the #1 bearing shells were installed backwards (locating tang installed opposite of notch). The tech clearly made a noob mistake and it cost our customer his engine.

Example 2: A highly reputed competing shop in my area purchased BE bearings from us since we're one of BE's vendors. Their tech arrived to pick up the parts while we had two RB services in process, and was amazed that we actually remove the subframes for the service. We were shocked. There's no way to have the same level of accuracy, attention to detail, and cleanliness without removing the subframe. If you disagree, we have photos from the shop from Example 1 mid-service with the subframe dangling, while the tech was busy mis-installing a bearing shell and ruining the engine.

In the case of the OP, I would bet that this is a main bearing failure.

I could only imagine the customer from example #1 being a weeeee bit pissed...

That is truly terrible. How hard would it have been to rotate the engine by hand with a tang installed backwards? Yikes.

Thanks for sharing.

Not Sure wrote

fwiw Evolve Automotive disagrees with you. check the ~5:00 mark of this video:

Evolve is a tuner, not an engine builder. The rods they hold up aren't even S65 rods. This video was hotly debated over on their home turf on the UK M3 forum. Even Evolve supporters walked away from their comments about the locating tang wearing down. As I remember, that wasn't the only flaw in the video and a few others were pointed out as well. This topic is clearly not their expertise.

The point being that tuners should stick to tuning, and let engine builders stick to building engines. This video is a prime example to demonstrate those points.

Green-Eggs wrote

Evolve is a tuner, not an engine builder. The rods they hold up aren't even S65 rods. This video was hotly debated over on their home turf on the UK M3 forum. Even Evolve supporters walked away from their comments about the locating tang wearing down. As I remember, that wasn't the only flaw in the video and a few others were pointed out as well. This topic is clearly not their expertise.

The point being that tuners should stick to tuning, and let engine builders stick to building engines. This video is a prime example to demonstrate those points.

interesting info. thx. i have no dog in the fight - only posted that video b/c i had watched it recently.

Green-Eggs wrote

The point being that tuners should stick to tuning, and let engine builders stick to building engines.

Crap, now I have to choose one.

deansbimmer wrote

Don't mean to derail the thread....But a shop's image is only as good as the representative representing it. Evolve enjoys a fantastic reputation but like almost every other shop out there, the founder who built that reputation based on knowledge and experience usually isn't the one doing the labor once they're big enough to enjoy such a reputation. The tech on that video is simply incorrect. Unfortunately, the majority of RB's being replaced by well known RB shops, are being replaced by techs who really don't understand what's going on. Furthermore, most of the videos being pushed around are sourced from these types of mechanics. Of course there are some exceptions but the truly knowledgeable sources are usually too busy to make videos.

Example 1: A customer who just had his bearings done by a much larger, more well known, highly reputable shop brought me his M3 because within 200 miles the rod was knocking. Upon disassembly I found the #1 bearing shells were installed backwards (locating tang installed opposite of notch). The tech clearly made a noob mistake and it cost our customer his engine.

Example 2: A highly reputed competing shop in my area purchased BE bearings from us since we're one of BE's vendors. Their tech arrived to pick up the parts while we had two RB services in process, and was amazed that we actually remove the subframes for the service. We were shocked. There's no way to have the same level of accuracy, attention to detail, and cleanliness without removing the subframe. If you disagree, we have photos from the shop from Example 1 mid-service with the subframe dangling, while the tech was busy mis-installing a bearing shell and ruining the engine.

In the case of the OP, I would bet that this is a main bearing failure.

Exactly why I did rod bearing myself after the swap. Can't trust anyone more then yourself. If do your research I would say anyone could do it without a problem in a day.

Excers wrote

Exactly why I did rod bearing myself after the swap. Can't trust anyone more then yourself. If do your research I would say anyone could do it without a problem in a day.

Honestly the part about dropping the subframe entirely isn't needed. I paid my mech to do the job while I helped and there was plenty of room between the subframe and rod caps to service the bearings. I didn't feel like we were cutting corners at all. To each their own.

8500RPM wrote

Honestly the part about dropping the subframe entirely isn't needed. I paid my mech to do the job while I helped and there was plenty of room between the subframe and rod caps to service the bearings. I didn't feel like we were cutting corners at all. To each their own.

I did mine on jack stands with the subframe hanging. I do recommend having the car as high as your stands and jack can go. I makes a big difference in the room you have between the floor and the bottom of the subframe where your body will be.

burnrbr wrote

I did mine on jack stands with the subframe hanging. I do recommend having the car as high as your stands and jack can go. I makes a big difference in the room you have between the floor and the bottom of the subframe where your body will be.

I dropped the subframe when on jack stands - really not that much more work and it makes everything else easier. But yes, it certainly can be done without dropping the subframe.

Cheers,

Scharbag wrote

I dropped the subframe when on jack stands - really not that much more work and it makes everything else easier. But yes, it certainly can be done without dropping the subframe.

Cheers,

That's great. I didn't know whether this job could be done on jack stands or no as far as working space is concerned, but one of the reasons i'd want to do it myself is so I can clean and tidy up while i'm under the car.... no rush, take my time, and acquire new tools in the process that I can use later for other projects. I just need to figure out a way to have it as high up and SAFELY as possible. I'm thinking that in addition to jackstands, build some strong wooden boxes to put under the siderails as a safety catch-all.

GM

Plenty have confirmed that you can do the job without, but not removing the subframe is cutting corners. Period. You simply can't employ the same degree of cleanliness and attention to detail with it dangling. Mistakes can be made more easily (as evidenced in my last post).

We also power wash the subframe and suspension assembly during the service. Having everything clean adds to the quality of the job. But, fewer and fewer people care about quality these days as the value and ownership demographic of these cars fall.

deansbimmer wrote

Plenty have confirmed that you can do the job without, but not removing the subframe is cutting corners. Period. You simply can't employ the same degree of cleanliness and attention to detail with it dangling. Mistakes can be made more easily (as evidenced in my last post).

We also power wash the subframe and suspension assembly during the service. Having everything clean adds to the quality of the job. But, fewer and fewer people care about quality these days as the value and ownership demographic of these cars fall.

That is really good to hear that y'all work in such a manner....my father taught me to only assemble things together in better mechanical AND cosmetic condition than how I found it. Cleanliness, the right tools and ROOM to work comfortably are staples for quality work. I've found a few unbelievable evidences of poor work on my bimmers from BMW dealer services either while the previous owner had the car, or even while I had it. Just unreal.

GM

CHE///MIST3 wrote

That's great. I didn't know whether this job could be done on jack stands or no as far as working space is concerned, but one of the reasons i'd want to do it myself is so I can clean and tidy up while i'm under the car.... no rush, take my time, and acquire new tools in the process that I can use later for other projects. I just need to figure out a way to have it as high up and SAFELY as possible. I'm thinking that in addition to jackstands, build some strong wooden boxes to put under the siderails as a safety catch-all.

GM

Be careful how high you raise the car as you will need really long arms if it is too high. I used 5T jack stands, not quite all the way up. So convenient that you can lift from the diff (steel pumpkin, not the aluminum fins) and the front. get the car on the stands one side at a time then lift the front/back up to a good height. Make sure before you get under the car that you give it a few violent wiggles to make sure everything is stable!!!

One you drop the subframe and oil pan, you will be surprised how high up you have to reach to get to the rods. Take your time, do not drop the bearing caps (or even set them on concrete). I had a plastic floor in my garage. I also used a piece of old carpet so that if I dropped anything, it would not hit anything hard nor would it bounce away.

Buy yourself a good digital torque wrench. Follow all the instructions to the letter. Be very clean. I used Redline assembly lube but some use oil - whatever you do, use lube!! Once it is buttoned up, you should not be able to see the parting line easily AND the rod should have easy side play - this will prove you did not squish an alignment tang (some have...).

Once you button it up, clench your butt-cheeks and press the big button.

SYTShadow has a totally awesome DIY that is super helpful.

Deansbimmer can comment further on the easiest way to drop the subframe but IIRC just drop the 6 strut tower nuts and undo the power steering lines. Roll the bitch out of the way and you will not even need an allignemnt. I did mine the harder way by removing the lower control arms and tie-rods. I needed an alignment but it really did not take that long.

Oh - secure your steering wheel!!! Bungie that pig to the seat rails cause it spins REALLY easily without a rack on the other end!!

It is a pretty fun job as BMW actually put things in easy to access locations. Also, IIRC, 3/8" box end wrench fits better than a 10mm on the 2 transmission bolts that are a bitch to get at with a socket.

And a tip my buddy taught me for the oil pan gasket was to line up the gasket and super-glue the outer tabs (flat wing looking things on the skinny end that really do nothing) to the pan lightly so that it stays in place. Saved some swearing I am sure cause you are lying on your back, holding a large oil pan with 1 hand and trying to get a bolt in with the other...

And make sure you have that long Torx bit. You will need it!

Enough babbling, enjoy the job.

Cheers,

Scharbag wrote

Deansbimmer can comment further on the easiest way to drop the subframe but IIRC just drop the 6 strut tower nuts and undo the power steering lines. Roll the bitch out of the way and you will not even need an allignemnt. I did mine the harder way by removing the lower control arms and tie-rods. I needed an alignment but it really did not take that long.

I’d be real interest in understanding this better. From my understanding, removing strut tower nuts will throw your camber off. I was planning on unbolting the tie rods without rotating them (i.e. not changing the toe), and unbolting the control arms from the subframe. I figure this would have the least impact on the alignment, although i would get it checked shortly after the RB replacement.

I understand this method requires me to unbolt the hoses to the rack. I noticed that RealOEM shows two different washers that sandwich the banjo bolts. They list the part number for one set of washers, but they don’t list the part number for Item 11. Here’s the link to the schematic for reference:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=WD93-USA-09-2008-E92-BMW-M3&diagId=32_1738

Does anyone have the part number for these washers, or are people just reusing the old washers? Any input would be greatly appreciated Thanks.

Pig Farmer wrote

I’d be real interest in understanding this better. From my understanding, removing strut tower nuts will throw your camber off. I was planning on unbolting the tie rods without rotating them (i.e. not changing the toe), and unbolting the control arms from the subframe. I figure this would have the least impact on the alignment, although i would get it checked shortly after the RB replacement.

I understand this method requires me to unbolt the hoses to the rack. I noticed that RealOEM shows two different washers that sandwich the banjo bolts. They list the part number for one set of washers, but they don’t list the part number for Item 11. Here’s the link to the schematic for reference:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=WD93-USA-09-2008-E92-BMW-M3&diagId=32_1738

Does anyone have the part number for these washers, or are people just reusing the old washers? Any input would be greatly appreciated Thanks.

Hope this helps. Now it should...

As far as camber goes, I think the strut tower self centers. I could be wrong though. Camber on the E92 is adjusted with via the control arms (unless you have camber plates).

Cheers,

Awesome! Thanks Scharbag.

Correct. The e92 towers are pinned. Not adjustable unless someone has removed the locator dowels to attempt to get another degree, or has aftermarket plates.

Since the subframe is also centered on dowels, there is nothing that would cause a change in alignment by removing the subframe as long as the arms are not disturbed. We have confirmed this on several occasions on the alignment rack after RB service.

deansbimmer wrote

You simply can't employ the same degree of cleanliness and attention to detail with it dangling.

I am an adult in real life but couldn't help myself.

100% agree. You just need to remove 4 more bolts which are easy to remove. If there was a way to not disconnect the steering shaft...100% all for it.

The first problem with this motor is the PO following BMW maintenance standards. BMW Maintenance Standards...well...FOCKING SUCK! 2 years/15k miles? Of course these motors are having issues.

I am a fan of sticking to OEM in this case until more data comes out but you can't attribute 1 failure on the internet to the BE bearings being total shiet.

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.

Again, my opinion...I think your first bearing change should be between 50k to 80k miles. The second one should be done a little sooner.

bigjae1976 wrote

deansbimmer wrote

You simply can't employ the same degree of cleanliness and attention to detail with it dangling.

I am an adult in real life but couldn't help myself.

100% agree. You just need to remove 4 more bolts which are easy to remove. If there was a way to not disconnect the steering shaft...100% all for it.

The first problem with this motor is the PO following BMW maintenance standards. BMW Maintenance Standards...well...FOCKING SUCK! 2 years/15k miles? Of course these motors are having issues.

I am a fan of sticking to OEM in this case until more data comes out but you can't attribute 1 failure on the internet to the BE bearings being total shiet.

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.

Again, my opinion...I think your first bearing change should be between 50k to 80k miles. The second one should be done a little sooner.

Spun 2 BEs. Yet put BEs in the replacement motor. So many variables of what started this whole problem. I however do know that the probability of you spinning an OEM bearing is so much higher then a BE or WPC. I'll play those odds.

I do know some guys who are supercharged and did bearings at 50-70 and then 120k. First set was without supercharger.

bigjae1976 wrote

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.
.

If that was the case we wouldn't of had to design new bearings

bigjae1976 wrote

deansbimmer wrote

You simply can't employ the same degree of cleanliness and attention to detail with it dangling.

I am an adult in real life but couldn't help myself.

100% agree. You just need to remove 4 more bolts which are easy to remove. If there was a way to not disconnect the steering shaft...100% all for it.

The first problem with this motor is the PO following BMW maintenance standards. BMW Maintenance Standards...well...FOCKING SUCK! 2 years/15k miles? Of course these motors are having issues.

I am a fan of sticking to OEM in this case until more data comes out but you can't attribute 1 failure on the internet to the BE bearings being total shiet.

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.

Again, my opinion...I think your first bearing change should be between 50k to 80k miles. The second one should be done a little sooner.

Please share the case where a BE bearing caused the failure.

Also, given the OE bearings coming out of these engines, why would you think putting in new OE bearings would be the best choice?

Finally, what data do you have to support the claim that BMW factory does a better job of installing bearings than anyone else? Bearings are not that hard to install properly. Torque wrenches can be calibrated. And we certainly do not see an epidemic of people having failed engines after changing their bearings due to imperfect installations.

Without data, you are just promoting FUD.

P.s. HYDRODYNAMIC BEARINGS ARE NOT A WEAR ITEM!!!

bigjae1976 wrote

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.

Again, my opinion...I think your first bearing change should be between 50k to 80k miles. The second one should be done a little sooner.

I did one set fully removing the subframe with suspension attached and one set on a friend’s car with the subframe hanging. I did not feel at all impaired with the subframe hanging.

I am just a DIYer, but I don’t think this job is rocket science. It just requires care, patience, and attention to detail. What is the pro going to do differently than me?

I would determine the 2nd change based on the wear I see on the original set. Yes, I understand the theory is that using added clearance bearings should eliminate wear, but the long term testing is not yet there to fully support the theory. Once we have seen a dozen sets of extra clearance bearings come out after 50k miles with no wear, I will accept it. Until then, I’d say do them again and maybe you will be able to extend the interval or even do away with a 3rd change if you find no wear on the 2nd change. I am at 40k on my 2nd set (wpc treated late oem with stock bolts changed in 2014) and my originals at 60k showed wear but were not as bad as some so I would feel comfortable leaving the replacements in for 60k.

pbonsalb wrote

bigjae1976 wrote

One theory I have is subsequent bearing changes require shorter preventive maintenance intervals. I would bet that a BMW factory worker who puts thousands of these motors together will do a better and more precise job than anyone here. That doesn't account for wear and whatever other variables exist...torque wrench calibrations? Never 100% spot on.

Again, my opinion...I think your first bearing change should be between 50k to 80k miles. The second one should be done a little sooner.

I did one set fully removing the subframe with suspension attached and one set on a friend’s car with the subframe hanging. I did not feel at all impaired with the subframe hanging.

I am just a DIYer, but I don’t think this job is rocket science. It just requires care, patience, and attention to detail. What is the pro going to do differently than me?

I would determine the 2nd change based on the wear I see on the original set. Yes, I understand the theory is that using added clearance bearings should eliminate wear, but the long term testing is not yet there to fully support the theory. Once we have seen a dozen sets of extra clearance bearings come out after 50k miles with no wear, I will accept it. Until then, I’d say do them again and maybe you will be able to extend the interval or even do away with a 3rd change if you find no wear on the 2nd change. I am at 40k on my 2nd set (wpc treated late oem with stock bolts changed in 2014) and my originals at 60k showed wear but were not as bad as some so I would feel comfortable leaving the replacements in for 60k.

That's very reasonable. One of the benefits of the BE bearings is you can use oil analysis.

I might have went the BE route but they're always sold out too. I went OEM WPC. First swap was 53k. I plan to swap them at 80k-85k out of curiosity.