Do all E9x M3 have rod bearing problems?

Like you, I initially didn't believe or know too much about this issue. Hence why I started this thread awhile back. I have extended warranty but you really have to read the fine prints. My extended warranty listed a bunch of internals that are covered from valves to valves spring, pistons, connecting rods, crank bearing...etc.. but it does not specifically list connecting rod bearings. So I knew if something were to happen I'll be in for a long fight with them. So you need to decide whether or not that is something you are prepare to do if your bearings fails. Keep in mind that no repair will be done until you and the extended warranty company comes to a resolution. You can only assume that it is in their best interest to drag it out. You have to understand that insurance/warranty companies are in the business to make money, helping you out is not at the top of their priority list. So they will find every possible way to pay out as little as possible to fix your car.

Having said that, I have changed my bearings and I went from "this issue is over blown" to "shit, I'm glad I changed mine" when I saw the condition of the bearings that came out.

If you even have to contemplate on whether you should get extended warranty or change the bearings, then you already believe there is a problem with the bearings that needs to be addressed.

MaximusB wrote

Like you, I initially didn't believe or know too much about this issue. Hence why I started this thread awhile back. I have extended warranty but you really have to read the fine prints. My extended warranty listed a bunch of internals that are covered from valves to valves spring, pistons, connecting rods, crank bearing...etc.. but it does not specifically list connecting rod bearings. So I knew if something were to happen I'll be in for a long fight with them. So you need to decide whether or not that is something you are prepare to do if your bearings fails. Keep in mind that no repair will be done until you and the extended warranty company comes to a resolution. You can only assume that it is in their best interest to drag it out. You have to understand that insurance/warranty companies are in the business to make money, helping you out is not at the top of their priority list. So they will find every possible way to pay out as little as possible to fix your car.

Having said that, I have changed my bearings and I went from "this issue is over blown" to "shit, I'm glad I changed mine" when I saw the condition of the bearings that came out.

If you even have to contemplate on whether you should get extended warranty or change the bearings, then you already believe there is a problem with the bearings that needs to be addressed.

I appreciate your post. Definitely will not be getting a warranty. Been talking to my bmw dealer and they will do the labor for 1800.00 probably will end up doing the job down the road. Thanks again. Good post.

MFL wrote

Schrodinger's Rod Bearings...

MFL wrote

Schrodinger's Rod Bearings...

What he said. Anyway, I'm new to the forums as my fiance and I prepare to take delivery of a 2011 M3 convertible with DCT and 72k miles from CarMax (Alpine White and Fox Red). I'm versed on the rod bearing and throttle assembly issues and plan to not only get the extended warranty through 125k miles, but also extensive forensics on the vehicle's service history to see if the rod bearings have already been replaced.

I also aim to learn more about each owner, hoping each was a pedestrian convertible type as opposed to hooning track rats. On that note, I plan to use the car only 2-3 times a year for VIR track days where I'll do the very same starting later this year atop the cheapest-but-sound S1000RR I can find. Even so, I will be diligent and thoughtful about dedicated oils and oil operating temperature practices between track use and daily driving. For the former I will likely comply with BMW and run 10W60 but for the latter, it will be 10W50 or even 10W40 instead. For DD she will effeminately motor it ~10 miles each way, each day, to and from work. I myself am fortunate enough to work from home, plus I have a '93 K75 at my disposal as well as my beloved 2001 4Runner in SR5 trim.

Katalepsis74 wrote

MFL wrote

Schrodinger's Rod Bearings...

MFL wrote

Schrodinger's Rod Bearings...

What he said. Anyway, I'm new to the forums as my fiance and I prepare to take delivery of a 2011 M3 convertible with DCT and 72k miles from CarMax (Alpine White and Fox Red). I'm versed on the rod bearing and throttle assembly issues and plan to not only get the extended warranty through 125k miles, but also extensive forensics on the vehicle's service history to see if the rod bearings have already been replaced.

I also aim to learn more about each owner, hoping each was a pedestrian convertible type as opposed to hooning track rats. On that note, I plan to use the car only 2-3 times a year for VIR track days where I'll do the very same starting later this year atop the cheapest-but-sound S1000RR I can find. Even so, I will be diligent and thoughtful about dedicated oils and oil operating temperature practices between track use and daily driving. For the former I will likely comply with BMW and run 10W60 but for the latter, it will be 10W50 or even 10W40 instead. For DD she will effeminately motor it ~10 miles each way, each day, to and from work. I myself am fortunate enough to work from home, plus I have a '93 K75 at my disposal as well as my beloved 2001 4Runner in SR5 trim.

I'm confused as to what the primary use for the car is. If you are only using it for track purposes it the E93 is not the preferred choice. But if you want a heavier base chassis, have at it.

It's a daily driver for us/her and also our road trip car, other than camping trips or when towing boat, ATV and/or motorcycles (my 4Runner has 250k miles, although it's in excellent mechanical and cosmetic conditions). It will do track duty at VIR roughly 2-3 times a year during which it will operate with more appropriate engine oil, brakes, and tires. Other than that, I will run 5W40 or at most 5W50 to address the virginic rod bearing journal clearances. I'm still deciding on DD oil choice since it's already +90F here every single day for as far as Google will forecast. On that note, we're probably all going to die someday relatively soon, but I digress.

Combining that approach with prudence in non-track driving conditions should give the rod bearings their best shot at longevity (cold starts, thoughtful operation until reaching target operating temperatures, etc). Getting the BE bearings that retain the copper, tin and lead formula is also in the cards when mileage + intuition dictate, assuming oil change samples don't raise a flag first. The choice for replacement parts is based on the "improved" OEM coated revisions being far too hard which can actually exacerbate the frighteningly-tight clearance gaffe.

I also forgot to comment on my intentions for at-home oil changes, which will be at 3500 to 5000 mile intervals even under mundane driving conditions. IMHO blowing money on engine oil is still dramatically cheaper than blowing money on engine...replacements....even if the general odds are in our favor both naturally speaking and through careful and informed operation.

As for the added heft in convertible trim *sigh* these are the types of compromises I felt I had to make in order to meet her wish for a convertible (although she's a burgeoning enthusiast and would have consented to the coupe, even sans hole in the roof for further weight loss). My first BMW was a used 2009 Z4 anyway and I confess there's hardly a better driving experience than being topless, both for the car and any attractive ladies inside...bazinga!

Lol. Welcome to the group and send photos of the new e93 when you can.

Err, Manganese & Magnesium are 2 different metals

Headhunter.M3 wrote

I am going to go out on a limb.. i think these S65 motors need their oil changed often. Like 3-6k miles and I bet that most people who have had rod bearing issues do not do that. Here you are with an 08 supercharged m3 108k miles and here I am with 2 m3's and used to have an 09 and we never have had rod bearing issues. KNOCK ON WOOD. So here are 4 m3's without issues. One thing i did is change my oil every 3k miles. Yes i know I am a nutjob but hey I have not had any rod bearing issues... yet. Lol probably will today though.. LOL

What's the deal tho right??

Just FYI, low OCIs don't stop bearings coming out looking excessively worn.
Look through all the photos in the rod bearing condition thread,, they include a few who have used 0w-40 over several 10s of thousands of miles.

Oh btw, yea they don't all have rod bearing problems, but then again with most M3s we just don't know, but for those people who do pull the bearings out (see thread linked above again), the vast majority (maybe over 90%) come out looking excessively worn. But, don't take my word for it, check out Clevite & King racing's papers (pdfs) on bearing wear & causes (they have photos).

And where are the photos of your M3s?

https://s233.photobucket.com/user/330indy/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/E2CF77E7-747C-4256-AA9B-0E6210A00EEF_zps1tzangix.jpg.html

S65 perspective from BMW CCA Tech Talk: Mike Miller

330indy wrote

https://s233.photobucket.com/user/330indy/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/E2CF77E7-747C-4256-AA9B-0E6210A00EEF_zps1tzangix.jpg.html

S65 perspective from BMW CCA Tech Talk: Mike Miller

This guy is just guessing. He didn't look at anything, he didn't measure anything. Just musing that it could be people tuning their engines, not warming up their car, using the wrong oil, waiting too long between oil changes, etc. Basically he is saying "In my experience, everything is user error, so this must be too"

Miller does not know as much as he thinks he knows. Have been reading roundel for a long time. But he is doing a service by answering questions and his answers are within an acceptable range most of the time.

So I've been following along with interest ever since I bought my 2011 last October. I'm most likely going to get the bearings done in the next few months (just about to turn 60k) with BE which is what the local shop is recommending.

My question is: Once replaced with new BE bearings, how critical will the warm up be in comparison to stock bearings? As a professional mechanic most of my adult life, I've always let my cars, trucks, superbikes, boats and planes warm up religiously before giving it the onion, but how much extra am I really buying with new BE bearings?

Captain Starbucks wrote

Once replaced with new BE bearings, how critical will the warm up be in comparison to stock bearings? As a professional mechanic most of my adult life, I've always let my cars, trucks, superbikes, boats and planes warm up religiously before giving it the onion, but how much extra am I really buying with new BE bearings?

Warm up is always important before giving the engine a workout. Its no different with BE bearings. Since the issue is not as much driving style or maintenance as it is an inherent clearance issue, the warm up suggestions are no different.

Assimilator1 wrote

Err, Manganese & Magnesium are 2 different metals



Just FYI, low OCIs don't stop bearings coming out looking excessively worn.
Look through all the photos in the rod bearing condition thread,, they include a few who have used 0w-40 over several 10s of thousands of miles.

Oh btw, yea they don't all have rod bearing problems, but then again with most M3s we just don't know, but for those people who do pull the bearings out (see thread linked above again), the vast majority (maybe over 90%) come out looking excessively worn. But, don't take my word for it, check out Clevite & King racing's papers (pdfs) on bearing wear & causes (they have photos).

And where are the photos of your M3s?

Coming asap!!

deansbimmer wrote

Warm up is always important before giving the engine a workout. Its no different with BE bearings. Since the issue is not as much driving style or maintenance as it is an inherent clearance issue, the warm up suggestions are no different.

How warmed up is warmed up? 200 to 210? My car won't even get to 210 unless I start to raise the revs to the powerband or I let it idle.

What about raising the revs to 4k or 5k, is 170-180 reasonable? My bearings are BE not that it should matter.

E9xx wrote

According to the "mbecoder" vin lookup site, I have a 2010.5 (2011 MY) E92. Being a 2010.5 would that mean I would have copper bearings? Looking to do a blackstone analysis

you probably have the "newer" bearings being a 2011 MY. Still just as likely to fail as the previous bearings.... So it won't change the need to get them changed to BE.

wfdeacon88 wrote

you probably have the "newer" bearings being a 2011 MY. Still just as likely to fail as the previous bearings.... So it won't change the need to get them changed to BE.

That's not what he wants. He wants to do the oil analysis, but if the bearings are the newer version, there is no point on doing it.

Even with the lead/copper bearings it's no guarantee it'll pick up a bearing problem.

In the data I'm collecting (for a thread to be), I've found (so far from photos of oil reports & bearings).
19 oil reports did find bearing problems & it was confirmed.
3 oil reports said that they were ok, and although they hadn't gone through to the copper their was excessive wear in the lead layer for their mileage.
2 oil reports said ok, but their was major wear to the lead & slight/small amounts of copper showing.
4 Oil reports said ok, but pb & Cu levels elevated + shells heavily worn or failed (1 owner).
3 oil reports said ok, but with 2 of them, 1k & 1.5k miles later the bearings were pulled & at least 1 bearing on each engine was mostly down to copper! And the 3rd his engine blew up 1k after the report from a spun rod bearing!
Here's the info/links I've got for those last 3:-
Confirmed analysis missed bad bearings

delirium330 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1300528 - Cu/Pb at 1 & 2, yet 1 bearing to copper!! Oil life 3092 miles. Bearings changed just ~1500 miles after report.

IIAp3x - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19883813&postcount=11 (no photos, but states that engine blew up 1k after report!). Pb/Cu 12/2 ppm. His extensive thread - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1119912

sv848evo - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23452744&postcount=736 - unknown mileage on oil, but more than 2800 miles. 1 bearing mostly worn through to copper! And a few others just gone through to copper. Oil report, pb 7ppm, Cu 3ppm, bearings changed 1k miles later.

I'll post links to the rest when I post my thread about it.

jvictormp wrote

wfdeacon88 wrote

you probably have the "newer" bearings being a 2011 MY. Still just as likely to fail as the previous bearings.... So it won't change the need to get them changed to BE.

That's not what he wants. He wants to do the oil analysis, but if the bearings are the newer version, there is no point on doing it.

I did answer his question, but most here would say oil analysis is worthless for RB decision... they should be changed regardless...

Assimilator1 wrote

Even with the lead/copper bearings it's no guarantee it'll pick up a bearing problem.

In the data I'm collecting (for a thread to be), I've found (so far from photos of oil reports & bearings).
19 oil reports did find bearing problems & it was confirmed.
3 oil reports said that they were ok, and although they hadn't gone through to the copper their was excessive wear in the lead layer for their mileage.
2 oil reports said ok, but their was major wear to the lead & slight/small amounts of copper showing.
4 Oil reports said ok, but pb & Cu levels elevated + shells heavily worn or failed (1 owner).
3 oil reports said ok, but with 2 of them, 1k & 1.5k miles later the bearings were pulled & at least 1 bearing was mostly down to copper! And the 3rd his engine blew up 1k after the report from a spun rod bearing!
Here's the info/links I've got for those last 3:-
Confirmed analysis missed bad bearings

delirium330 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1300528 - Cu/Pb at 1 & 2, yet 1 bearing to copper!! Oil life 3092 miles. Bearings changed just ~1500 miles after report.

IIAp3x - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19883813&postcount=11 (no photos, but states that engine blew up 1k after report!). Pb/Cu 12/2 ppm. His extensive thread - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1119912

sv848evo - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23452744&postcount=736 - unknown mileage on oil, but more than 2800 miles. 1 bearing mostly worn through to copper! And a few others just gone through to copper. Oil report, pb 7ppm, Cu 3ppm, bearings changed 1k miles later.

I'll post links to the rest when I post my thread about it.

Thank you for this. If this doesn't prove that a Blackstone is worthless, I don't know what does.

No probs, I would add though that if oil analysis is done from the 1st oil change an engine has it would pick up problems (but who does!?), or from the time the big end bearings are changed it would then pick up if they had problems at a later stage, if it's done at every oil change. In addition to that I would suggest a max lead level of 10ppm (assuming lead/copper bearings, & yes that's low! And lower than the labs suggest) & possibly sampling it about every 3k miles or so!

Assimilator1 wrote

No probs, I would add though that if oil analysis is done from the 1st oil change an engine has it would pick up problems (but who does!?), or from the time the big end bearings are changed it would then pick up if they had problems at a later stage, if it's done at every oil change. In addition to that I would suggest a max lead level of 10ppm (assuming lead/copper bearings, & yes that's low! And lower than the labs suggest) & possibly sampling it about every 3k miles or so!

I just had to...

Big end bearings not a common US term?