Need feedback on E60 M5

Recently I've been thinking about getting an E60 M5 to keep the M3 company. I love the S65 to bits but I've done enough mods to the M3 that it's become borderline 'hardcore' - amazing fun to drive in the hills or track, but just a little bit tiring for daily use. So I thought of getting an M5 V10 for the days when I want a bit more lux motoring. The M3 will still be my main daily, and the M5 will be there for when I feel like a change of scenery.

I've looking for anyone who has owned an E60 M5 to share their experience. Even better if they have owned it at the same time as the E9x M3. For the M5, I would be looking for a MY2007+ and will be keeping it stock standard (fingers and toes crossed).

The specific questions I have are:
1. Is the E60 M5 similar enough to the E9x M3 that I would be silly to get two cars that are basically the same driving experience?

2. I'm not too worried about throttle actuators, rod bearings or SMG3, but VANOS failure concerns me. I know they updated the VANOS pump in MY2007+. Is the new VANOS pump basically bulletproof, or does it still fail but at a lower rate?

3. How many miles should I expect from the SMG3 clutch?

Any advice/feedback will be appreciated.

The E60 M5 is a fast car, heavy though. And extremely cheap to buy.
And there is a reason because the cost of ownership is pretty pretty high.
But no mater what people say, you should test drive one and see for yourself.
I would personally look for a 6MT one, one less thing that will go bad.

I was lucky enough to drive one on a race track, you can feel the weight but it was a real pleasure to drive.

I had an F10 M5 and E92 M3 (my current M3) at the same time and considered swapping out the F10 for an E60. For me, the E92 and the E60 are different enough to have and enjoy both, each for their intended purpose. I may have felt differently if I had a DCT e90, but that wasn't the case so I proceeded with my E60 search. Personally, I would try to find the latest model you can afford 08+ would be my recommendation. 06's were plagued w/ problems (as were all years but 06's were the worst). If you're looking for something more comfortable to, dare I say..."daily" you may be fooled in to considering the SMG and while it's not as bad as they say, the pump/solenoid will go bad at some point, even after replacement. Overall, I found the E60's cabin less appealing and more "dated" than the E9x's basic cabin. It's definitely larger and heavier than the e9x, but much smaller and I'd say, more nimble and thrilling than the F10 M5. Obviously, the sounds it makes are glorious, even a notch above the s65. Here's what you really have to consider - yes, the cost of entry is relatively low. I'm sure you can find a decent example in the $16-18k range, 19-22 should get you an enthusiast-loved example and 23+ should get you a nice 6spd. It's the cost of ownership, however that bites you. Tires, brakes, oil changes, rod bearings, TA's, etc. all coupled with your other M car...it adds up. I've had 2 M cars in the garage in two separate eras and believe me, there's always something that one, the other, or both need. I don't know your financial status but it's worth considering.

Having owned my M3 for 5 years now I think I know what I'm walking into financially. Yes, 6MT would be perfect but it was never offered in my country (Malaysia), only in the US.

Yeah ideal MY would be 2008+ but most of the cars here are 2006-2007. MY2007 got the upgraded VANOS pump so that's the best I can expect to find unless a 2008+ pops up somewhere. SMG issues are mostly fixable these days and I'm not too concerned about RBs and TAs.

I think I need to go and test drive an M5 to see if it will be a worthwhile addition to the fleet.

I had an '08 M5 for a couple of years, thing was an absolute beast.. definitely a heavy car, and if you think you're stopping at gas stations often with the E9x, just wait 'til you have the E60 M5.. drinks gas like its nothing. It was definitely a more "lux" experience though.. The active seats were fun to have. In the two years and ~30k miles I put on it, I don't recall ever having any issues with it. My neighbor has one now (an '09), doesn't drive it too often but doesn't have issues with his. I do believe the S85 has the same rod bearing concerns as the S65.

How is living with the SMG? Or SMG II or III or whatever it's called on the 2008+ M5/6?

The SMG in the e46 is probably the worst transmission of all time IMHO. Made me nauseous. I heard the SMG II/III whatever was a huge improvement but still nothing like the e9X M3's DCT which is magical.

Longboarder wrote

How is living with the SMG? Or SMG II or III or whatever it's called on the 2008+ M5/6?

The SMG in the e46 is probably the worst transmission of all time IMHO. Made me nauseous. I heard the SMG II/III whatever was a huge improvement but still nothing like the e9X M3's DCT which is magical.

Huge improvement over the SMG I in the e46's but compared to the DCT, forget about it. It's terrible.

94jedi wrote

Longboarder wrote

How is living with the SMG? Or SMG II or III or whatever it's called on the 2008+ M5/6?

The SMG in the e46 is probably the worst transmission of all time IMHO. Made me nauseous. I heard the SMG II/III whatever was a huge improvement but still nothing like the e9X M3's DCT which is magical.

Huge improvement over the SMG I in the e46's but compared to the DCT, forget about it. It's terrible.

Thx for the feedback. Never driven one but love the look of the M6 and the sound is insane but cant live with a trans that jerks back and forth on normal upshift driving.

Longboarder wrote

Thx for the feedback. Never driven one but love the look of the M6 and the sound is insane but cant live with a trans that jerks back and forth on normal upshift driving.

I believe there is a trans tune you can get and the die hard SMG II guys love it, especially at full "harshness" shift settings (feels like someone kicking the back of your seat). It's "liveable" but personally, I knew I would grow weary of it.

94jedi wrote

Longboarder wrote

Thx for the feedback. Never driven one but love the look of the M6 and the sound is insane but cant live with a trans that jerks back and forth on normal upshift driving.

I believe there is a trans tune you can get and the die hard SMG II guys love it, especially at full "harshness" shift settings (feels like someone kicking the back of your seat). It's "liveable" but personally, I knew I would grow weary of it.

Appreciate the input. Now I need to find one to drive!

I've driven single-clutch robotized manuals before (Alfa 156 Selespeed). They are horrid at low speed, especially at that 'magical' speed where the transmission can't decide if it wants to clutch in or out. So it tries to do both repeatedly and the car jerks like its on a pogo stick. It's definitely annoying but it's something I can live with or drive around (ie be committed as you accelerate away, don't stick so close to the car in front of you, etc).

Aside from that the SMG shd be ok. It will be nowhere as smooth or as fast as the DCT (a real gem of a gearbox, second only to the PDK) but you can get used to it. Timing a slight throttle liftoff during up shift improves the smoothness a bit, and the upshift 'lurch' can feel more raw than a purely smooth automatic gearshift.

Seems like F10 M5/M6 GC is more your style. I've considered that route as well.

kyrix1st wrote

Seems like F10 M5/M6 GC is more your style. I've considered that route as well.

Not considering any turbo engines. The main reason I want the E60 M5 is for the S85. The car is just an excuse to have that V10 howl.

The M5board was very active for many years (and still is somewhat) for the E60, so that's a great resource. In any event, there were running changes in some important areas for the S85: https://www.m5board.com/threads/m6-blown-motor-horror-story.314058/page-7#post-4200689

CSBM5 wrote

The M5board was very active for many years (and still is somewhat) for the E60, so that's a great resource. In any event, there were running changes in some important areas for the S85: https://www.m5board.com/threads/m6-blown-motor-horror-story.314058/page-7#post-4200689

Yup read that in detail. Which is why MY2007+ is a minimum for me.

The E60 is a very special car. I have right of first refusal on two E60 6MTs that friends own.
One of these friends has the 6MT E60 and the 6MT E9X M3. They are perfectly compatible. The M5 was considered heavy back when it launched, today its weight seems quite attractive.

It is an immensely special car.

ESS' website used to have a video on their smg3 software and it was so epic, although here in the US we got the 6MT which i prefer

SYT_Shadow wrote

The E60 is a very special car. I have right of first refusal on two E60 6MTs that friends own.
One of these friends has the 6MT E60 and the 6MT E9X M3. They are perfectly compatible. The M5 was considered heavy back when it launched, today its weight seems quite attractive.

It is an immensely special car.

ESS' website used to have a video on their smg3 software and it was so epic, although here in the US we got the 6MT which i prefer

That would be my dream pair right now - E92 M3 and E60 M5. Two cars from a bygone era with two engines that we will never see the like of again.

That's what my heart tells me anyway. My head is asking me to seek a second opinion. Lol.

Redd wrote

That would be my dream pair right now - E92 M3 and E60 M5. Two cars from a bygone era with two engines that we will never see the like of again.

That's what my heart tells me anyway. My head is asking me to seek a second opinion. Lol.

If you get a newer, from 2008 on, the E60 has normal reliability

Finally went to test drive an E60 M5. As expected the V10 dominates the experience. I've never driven a more Jeckyl & Hyde car - in 400hp mode and D2, the car is so lazy. Engine is slow to respond, upshifts take an eternity. Press the M Button to engage 500hp and S5 however, and it's like the you've just unleashed the hounds of hell under the hood. The difference is night and day. The car I drove had a Hartge exhaust and sounded great, but surprisingly not as huge of a difference compared to my FBO M3. I guess you really need straight pipes to hear the V10 scream.

In the end tho, the S85 wasn't enough of a difference over the S65 for me to justify a purchase. Steering feel was much more numb than the M3. EDC I felt didn't gel with the car - it was either way too wallowy in Comfort or way too overdamped in Sport. Coming from DCT, the SMG really does show its age. You need to really have it in S5 and full throttle upshifts to get any smoothness out of it but that's what I have the M3 for. So as a cruiser, the M5 is slightly flawed. The thing that got me the most tho, was the size and weight of the car. I didn't expect the near 2 ton weight to bother me so much but it did. I guess I'm just not a fan of big cars.

Stepping out from the M5 back into my M3, I felt that the M3 was so much easier to drive. No need to fidget with M buttons to get the engine response you want; perfect damping from the Ohlins R/T; and just basically a smaller and more nimble package. I know it's not fair to compare a stock M5 to a built M3, but I know if both were in my garage I would drive the M3 99% of the time. If used as a 2nd car, the M5 isn't a car you can neglect for long periods of time and then just start it and drive and not expect any issues.

I really wanted to like the E60 M5, I truly did. It was even a near perfect used unit too - MY2007 with 110k kms, Sepang Bronze with red extended leather and every option checked. Full service history and all maintenance done with solenoids, coils, dampers, and new engine and gearbox all within the last one year. But I guess I was just too spoiled by my M3.

Guess I'll look at R8's for my V10 fix.

Two completely different cars with different dynamics. The e60 is a big car with the driving dynamics of BMW from the early 2000s which make the car feel smaller than it is on the road. Its a great driver, SMG is well suited for the car. Try to avoid one where nothing has been fixed as they are great at hiding issues. I have access to both an E60 6MT and an E60 SMG, I prefer the SMG it just feels weird rowing gears in something so large, IMO. Be advised of potential repair work, having the service history of the car showing that the oil was changed in a timely manner goes a long way in terms of healthy enjoyment of the beast

E63M and E60M are surprisingly different driving experiences.

It's a big enough difference that I was not intrerested in an E60M after driving both, despite really loving the V10 and wanting one, it was M6 or bust for me. I actually like SMG3, it's a good trans, you just can't treat it like an automatic. Driven with an engaged driver and paying attention to what the clutch is doing, it's possible to be very smooth and still get the brutally fast and hard WOT upshifts of an automated trans that is very well matched to the peaky V10.

But, in the end, it's really hard to find a car that makes you want to step away from an E9xM.

Good job on doing a test drive and stopping the process of going to the M5. Back about 15 year ago or so, we had just had our first child, and my E36 M3 was neglected and I had only driven 2k miles in two years, so I decided to sell it and look for 5-series. Found a beautiful 2001 540i 6MT and loved the V8 but realized too late that "size matters"

All the things you mentioned were exactly what I found: the additional size and weight made it feel like a land yacht vs. E36 M3, and I eventually had to let it go after about 2 years.

I did learn my lesson, and eventually replaced it with an E90 330i 6MT, and have come full circle with my E90 M3 DCT, which I am absolutely thrilled with

To your last point, it's nice to be "spoiled" again

Redd wrote

Finally went to test drive an E60 M5. As expected the V10 dominates the experience. I've never driven a more Jeckyl & Hyde car - in 400hp mode and D2, the car is so lazy. Engine is slow to respond, upshifts take an eternity. Press the M Button to engage 500hp and S5 however, and it's like the you've just unleashed the hounds of hell under the hood. The difference is night and day. The car I drove had a Hartge exhaust and sounded great, but surprisingly not as huge of a difference compared to my FBO M3. I guess you really need straight pipes to hear the V10 scream.

In the end tho, the S85 wasn't enough of a difference over the S65 for me to justify a purchase. Steering feel was much more numb than the M3. EDC I felt didn't gel with the car - it was either way too wallowy in Comfort or way too overdamped in Sport. Coming from DCT, the SMG really does show its age. You need to really have it in S5 and full throttle upshifts to get any smoothness out of it but that's what I have the M3 for. So as a cruiser, the M5 is slightly flawed. The thing that got me the most tho, was the size and weight of the car. I didn't expect the near 2 ton weight to bother me so much but it did. I guess I'm just not a fan of big cars.

Stepping out from the M5 back into my M3, I felt that the M3 was so much easier to drive. No need to fidget with M buttons to get the engine response you want; perfect damping from the Ohlins R/T; and just basically a smaller and more nimble package. I know it's not fair to compare a stock M5 to a built M3, but I know if both were in my garage I would drive the M3 99% of the time. If used as a 2nd car, the M5 isn't a car you can neglect for long periods of time and then just start it and drive and not expect any issues.

But I guess I was just too spoiled by my M3.