Anyone thinking about trading in on the new GR86?

Bartledoo wrote

rhyary wrote

I just watched IMSA Mazda MX-5 Cup.
180hp and not boring at all.

Those cars aren't setup in a boring manner, and that is RACING rather than lapping. Completely different game.

You should definitely trade for a GR86 though if that's what you're getting at…

There is nothing there for me until this iteration of the GR86 runs for 2 years and get the bugs out. Also, if the engine explodes on trackdays then forget it.

But, if you get a used 6spd down the road, put some aftermarket suspension in it I think it has potential for cheap fun and an excellent for learning. and to the topic… not boring.

I think almost any OEM road car, including the GR86, is boring on the track. At least from my limited experience.

Trading is not an option for me.

rhyary wrote

There is nothing there for me until this iteration of the GR86 runs for 2 years and get the bugs out. Also, if the engine explodes on trackdays then forget it.

But, if you get a used 6spd down the road, put some aftermarket suspension in it I think it has potential for cheap fun and an excellent for learning. and to the topic… not boring.

I think almost any OEM road car, including the GR86, is boring on the track. At least from my limited experience.

Trading is not an option for me.

Let’s not forget that I didn’t say it would be boring for you. You came to be a contrarian, but you missed my point.

Bartledoo wrote

rhyary wrote

There is nothing there for me until this iteration of the GR86 runs for 2 years and get the bugs out. Also, if the engine explodes on trackdays then forget it.

But, if you get a used 6spd down the road, put some aftermarket suspension in it I think it has potential for cheap fun and an excellent for learning. and to the topic… not boring.

I think almost any OEM road car, including the GR86, is boring on the track. At least from my limited experience.

Trading is not an option for me.

Let's not forget that I didn't say it would be boring for you. You came to be a contrarian, but you missed my point.

Sorry about that.
will read again carfully

Any chance of adding something to split track time? Maybe a budget friendly older brz which can pick up the majority of track duty? Feels like you'd be losing trading a car you've spent a lot of money on in maintenance for something new which is going to depreciate hard. I get it though, 08 woes and all.

A friend of mine has both GR86 and an E92 M3 daily.
Says if he had to pick one, the M3 hands-down. It does everything well, just have to spend the money for upkeep.

GORDON.M3 wrote

A friend of mine has both GR86 and an E92 M3 daily.
Says if he had to pick one, the M3 hands-down. It does everything well, just have to spend the money for upkeep.

The new GR86?

rhyary wrote

The new GR86?

Yes, they are everywhere in Toronto already.

GR86 is definitely the first car that had me considering trading in the M3. But I would miss the sound and theatrics of the S65 so decided against it for the way I use the car.

I also have a dedicated 240Z for track days so the M3 is specifically a fun daily for me. If I tracked the M3 no question I would definitely sell it for a GR86. Cheaper wear items and a more pure driving experience.. ~700 pounds lighter...

evomike wrote

If the car is boring to drive that is on you and your driving skill

Not if the car has no power, it's like driving an elephant that looks cute.

Oil starvation at the Spoon -> bye bye another engine!

kyrix1st wrote

Oil starvation at the Spoon -> bye bye another engine!

Damn that sucks. I love the music videos playing on the screen.

Bartledoo wrote

Damn that sucks. I love the music videos playing on the screen.

86s like to blow engines left and right, quite literally. So it could corner with lower CoG.

kyrix1st wrote

Oil starvation at the Spoon -> bye bye another engine!

That is a last generation car, not the new 2022.

There is no major engine change other than a stroked up 2.4L, which likely makes matters worse due to longer strokes.

You would need at least a pseudo dry sump system like that of a non GT 911 and a deep oil pan with baffle to counter these issues, and Subaru, who makes these engines, have not made those changes. By the time you made these changes, the total cost would be retailing around a nice E92 M3.

Sure it would be cheaper to run in the long run because it is lighter, but do you really want to spend this much money in a Japanese boxer 4 that makes less than 250hp? If I wanted a flat four engine, I could pick up a nicely used 718 with none of these issues.

ol doc gully wrote

That is a last generation car, not the new 2022.

Kind of in the same boat, I dumped a bunch of money into mine to get it up to par. I'll be damned if some other guy is going to enjoy the fruits of my labor. I am looking to split the daily duties with another car soon tho, she be pricey to drive everyday.

kyrix1st wrote

There is no major engine change other than a stroked up 2.4L, which likely makes matters worse due to longer strokes.

You would need at least a pseudo dry sump system like that of a non GT 911 and a deep oil pan with baffle to counter these issues, and Subaru, who makes these engines, have not made those changes. By the time you made these changes, the total cost would be retailing around a nice E92 M3.

Sure it would be cheaper to run in the long run because it is lighter, but do you really want to spend this much money in a Japanese boxer 4 that makes less than 250hp? If I wanted a flat four engine, I could pick up a nicely used 718 with none of these issues.

ol doc gully wrote

That is a last generation car, not the new 2022.

I think it was only bored out. Not stroked. But yeah no major oiling changes took place.

kyrix1st wrote

Oil starvation at the Spoon -> bye bye another engine!

Good driving.. is that you?

kyrix1st wrote

There is no major engine change other than a stroked up 2.4L, which likely makes matters worse due to longer strokes.

You would need at least a pseudo dry sump system like that of a non GT 911 and a deep oil pan with baffle to counter these issues, and Subaru, who makes these engines, have not made those changes. By the time you made these changes, the total cost would be retailing around a nice E92 M3.

Sure it would be cheaper to run in the long run because it is lighter, but do you really want to spend this much money in a Japanese boxer 4 that makes less than 250hp? If I wanted a flat four engine, I could pick up a nicely used 718 with none of these issues.

It sounds like you are speaking from a position of speculation.

FA24 is based on other FA24 (ie Ascent), not necessarily a bored/stroked iteration of the previous gen GT86/BRZ FA20. I don’t think we know much about the new powerplant, but generally a second iteration such as this is the ideal scenario to remedy any woes.

To suggest that a ‘pseudo’ dry sump system is the only way to improve oiling capabilities on an engine is also quite an overstatement.

EDIT: Just to add, I have certainly heard of those who had engine problems with the previous model, just as I have heard of those who track regularly who have not had issues. But my point is that substantial changes to engines occur often which are under the radar of information available to casual internet surfers. For instance, even the last generation model saw substantial engine changes in 2017, details can be found here. And that's on the same model, with the 'same engine' - now we are talking about a whole new engine. So, suffice to say, I think its only reasonable to say we don't know how this engine compares or what it is capable of, at least at this time.

I would like a GR86/BRZ because of the raw / fun / pure driving experience it offers, that I don’t think can be found in very many places in the market (a statement that holds validity back through quite a few years). If you are choosing your vehicles based solely on country of origin and engine power, then yes, I can very much see this not being a car for you.

Keeping my E90 but really thinking about buying a GR86 as well (once it's available without markups)

You should read again what I said and see where I am from.
I am not speculating about blown 86 engines at track days, it is what I witnessed real time (Suzuka Circuit is/was my backyard, less than an hour drive). 95% of my univ. friends work in R&D of the major Japanese auto companies, and they will tell you one reason why the tuning culture is so prevalent in Japan, is due to the relatively low equipment these cars have out of the factory. They have to be, else the competitive pricing and street reliability do not make sense. I will also tell you that E92 M3 was the R&D benchmark when Toyota/Lexus developed their V8 "sports" cars in the form of RC-F, GS-F etc.

It's basic physics with the boxer layout of the engine, that with high lateral G cornering experienced in high speed circuits like Suzuka, there is bound to be oil starvation without an oil pan baffle or some form of dry sump solution. While inline sixes do not suffer the issue to a similar degree - oil pan layout of the inline engines is generally much more efficient when it comes to oil supply - BMW still needed to adopt dual oil pickups from 1994 in E36 M3s.

Don't get me wrong. 86s are fun cars, but people should stop pretending these make serious track tools in the stock form because they do not.

ol doc gully wrote

It sounds like you are speaking from a position of speculation.

FA24 is based on other FA24 (ie Ascent), not necessarily a bored/stroked iteration of the previous gen GT86/BRZ FA20. I don’t think we know much about the new powerplant, but generally a second iteration such as this is the ideal scenario to remedy any woes.

To suggest that a ‘pseudo’ dry sump system is the only way to improve oiling capabilities on an engine is also quite an overstatement.

I would like a GR86/BRZ because of the raw / fun / pure driving experience it offers, that I don’t think can be found in very many places in the market (a statement that holds validity back through quite a few years). If you are choosing your vehicles based solely on country of origin and engine power, then yes, I can very much see this not being a car for you.

kyrix1st wrote

You should read again what I said and see where I am from.
I am not speculating about blown 86 engines at track days, it is what I witnessed real time (Suzuka Circuit is/was my backyard, less than an hour drive). 95% of my univ. friends work in R&D of the major Japanese auto companies, and they will tell you one reason why the tuning culture is so prevalent in Japan, is due to the relatively low equipment these cars have out of the factory. They have to be, else the competitive pricing and street reliability do not make sense. I will also tell you that E92 M3 was the R&D benchmark when Toyota/Lexus developed their V8 "sports" cars in the form of RC-F, GS-F etc.

It's basic physics with the boxer layout of the engine, that with high lateral G cornering experienced in high speed circuits like Suzuka, there is bound to be oil starvation without an oil pan baffle or some form of dry sump solution. While inline sixes do not suffer the issue to a similar degree - oil pan layout of the inline engines is generally much more efficient when it comes to oil supply - BMW still needed to adopt dual oil pickups from 1994 in E36 M3s.

Don't get me wrong. 86s are fun cars, but people should stop pretending these make serious track tools in the stock form because they do not.

I apologize for my late edit, but in it I said I have also heard of blown engines as I have heard of those who track regularly with zero issues.

I am not suggesting you are speculating about that. I am strongly suggesting you are speculating about characteristics, capabilities and limits of the new engine.

Cmassey3 wrote

I've got an '08 E92 M3 that I've owned for about 2 years now and it's now just over 80k miles. Unfortunately I think this example was never maintained over it's life and it's taken about $15-$20k just to catch up on maintenance and parts since I've owned it. It's mostly in good shape now, barring a massive washer fluid leak. I've basically mechanically totaled it from my buy in at $19k.

Shotgunning items fixed: rod bearings, leaky DCT, alternator, throttle body actuators, new tires, repaired headliner, pads/rotors/fluids, most trim and under-body panels. It's been expensive and while I can afford it no problem, the frequency of these issues popping up has shaken my confidence in the car and I don't feel like driving it too often. The 80k-150k mile journey has me worried a bit. Overall, it's in really good shape now thankfully.

I could about make even on a new Toyota GR86 with current market rates and that would mean cheaper track days for sure. I think I'm through the worst of it getting this M3 back to health but still on the fence.

I know these questions are always personal to the individual, but I did want to see if anyone else has been thinking about trading in on a cheaper track day car like the GR86 or even going newer to the M4 with better reliability across the board.

Honestly, and this is a theme that comes up many times and on many M-car forums, the cost of these cars is fairly flat. Lets say $40k just to have a nice round number and leave mileage out of it for now. If you pay $25k for one of these then you can expect to put another $15k into it to get it fully sorted. If you pay $40k then you will likely not have much more to add to it. This is just how it is, and it has been true on the E36 M's and the E46 M's before. There are very few instances were you really "get a deal" on these cars. They are as a rule a very maintenance-needy platform and require continuous normal and preventative maintenance to keep them reliable. The good news is they make all that work worth while with an extremely high smile-to-$$ ratio, and they do tend to hold value long term (unlike just about any other car mentioned here or usually compared to the M's).

And in your particular place, you have all the issues sorted out now. Not to say other issues won't come up, but sounds like the big ones are done. Dumping the car at this point will lose any long term value you may have built into the car, hell you may even lose money on the deal. I would keep it IMHO.