Questions about Pagid RSL29, PFC 08, PFC 11 (and maybe RSL 1)

Considering these for my next track pad. Novice, endurance 200TW tire (likely AD09) in 245f/265r, stock weight, no aero. F8x front brake swap coming; rears will be stock; OE rotors all around. I know the best way to figure this out would be to experiment, but track time will be limited this year so I want to find the highest probability of success.

All these pads seem to have their fans. I have zero experience with any of them; just going off what I've read so far. Hoping people can help me fill in some blanks based on real-world experience.

1. For initial bite, it looks like PFC 11 > PFC 08 > RSL29. Is that correct?

2. When stone cold, do the PFCs work any better than RSL29?

3. I've read that RSL29 can have mediocre pedal feel, especially when worn. True? Are the PFCs better in this department?

4. PFC 11 seems to have higher friction than the others and looks like a highly progressive pad. Is there a risk that it will too easily overwhelm the tires I'll be running, to the point of being a challenge for my noob foot to modulate?

5. Is there any difference WRT how easily any of these would share a rotor with OE pads, assuming I drive on them to and from the track (and maybe another day or two before and after) to scrape off the previous transfer layer?

6. Has anyone used Pagid RSL1? It looks closer to PFC 11 in initial bite and overall friction, with a much wider and flatter friction plateau vs. temp. True?

Grateful for any and all input!

I share a similar question, but also interested if anyone has expierence with the new PFC 331 pad compound? Seem to be replacing + outclassing the 08/11s??

911r wrote

I share a similar question, but also interested if anyone has expierence with the new PFC 331 pad compound? Seem to be replacing + outclassing the 08/11s??

331 looks interesting. It's a highly digressive pad – friction decreases with temp, so you have less at the end of a braking zone than at the beginning. 11 is the opposite – more when hot than when warm, so more at the end of a braking zone than at the beginning. IDK if 331 outclasses 11 per se; looks more like a preference thing. But, good to have options.

IamFODI wrote

Considering these for my next track pad. Novice, endurance 200TW tire (likely AD09) in 245f/265r, stock weight, no aero. F8x front brake swap coming; rears will be stock; OE rotors all around. I know the best way to figure this out would be to experiment, but track time will be limited this year so I want to find the highest probability of success.

All these pads seem to have their fans. I have zero experience with any of them; just going off what I've read so far. Hoping people can help me fill in some blanks based on real-world experience.

1. For initial bite, it looks like PFC 11 > PFC 08 > RSL29. Is that correct?

PFC 11 is a sprint compound with a progressive mu-temp curve that has more bite at the end of a tracking zone. In spite of that it has a nice initial bite and hot bite. PFC 08 is an endurance compound with an initial bite and hot bite that are lower than PFC11. I would recommend trying PFC 331/332 combo, if available, which are designed to work well with stock ABS. I have no experience with Pagid pads. I’d also suggest that you consider trying Cobalt XR1 on the front and XR2 on the rear. You could also try XR3 on the rear if you want to shift the brake bias forward.

2. When stone cold, do the PFCs work any better than RSL29?

No experience with Pagid so I can’t compare the two. However, most race compounds have poor cold bite and aggressively wear away the rotor surface. PFC 11 has sufficient cold bite that can still stop the car reasonably well in an emergency situation.

3. I've read that RSL29 can have mediocre pedal feel, especially when worn. True? Are the PFCs better in this department?

I’ve tried most race pad compounds and tried PFC for the first time in 2005-2006 and immediately fell in love with their pads. The pedal feel on my e46 M3 felt firmer with PFC 05 (11 was developed from the 05), 03 and 01. Cobalt XR1 performs similarly to the PFC 05.

4. PFC 11 seems to have higher friction than the others and looks like a highly progressive pad. Is there a risk that it will too easily overwhelm the tires I'll be running, to the point of being a challenge for my noob foot to modulate?

No. PFC 11 is easy to modulate and has excellent release characteristics. Your pads have to be really hot to reach the temp range where mu rapidly increases. I find PFC 11 provides great confidence in the braking zone knowing you’re not going to experience a drop in mu.

5. Is there any difference WRT how easily any of these would share a rotor with OE pads, assuming I drive on them to and from the track (and maybe another day or two before and after) to scrape off the previous transfer layer?

I have no experience with oem pads but I’ve never had an incompatibility issue when switching from Carbotech 1521 street compound to any race compound. I would think a proper bedding-in procedure on street hot rotors would remove the oem pad transfer layer and put down a new uniform race pad transfer layer.

6. Has anyone used Pagid RSL1? It looks closer to PFC 11 in initial bite and overall friction, with a much wider and flatter friction plateau vs. temp. True?

I don’t know. However, I’d give PFC 331/332 a try. Don’t be deceived by the 332 mu-temp curve because its braking performance doesn’t match its mu-temp curve. These compounds work well with no aero or with significant aero. Also, most pads perform differently from what you’d expect from their mu-temp curves.

Grateful for any and all input!

PFC 11 is being discontinued so I’d recommend trying the PFC 331/332 combo or Cobalt XR1/XR2, or XR1/XR3, combos. You could try the front compound only as long as you are running a less aggressive race pad on the rear.

M3SQRD wrote

PFC 11 is being discontinued so I’d recommend trying the PFC 331/332 combo or Cobalt XR1/XR2, or XR1/XR3, combos. You could try the front compound only as long as you are running a less aggressive race pad on the rear.

Appreciate your input as always, M3SQRD.

331/332 is Bimmerworld's strong recommendation as well, it seems. PFC didn't list either of those for my calipers but it does look like they exist!

How would you compare 331/332 to XR1/XR2?

IamFODI wrote

Appreciate your input as always, M3SQRD.

331/332 is Bimmerworld's strong recommendation as well, it seems. PFC didn't list either of those for my calipers but it does look like they exist!

How would you compare 331/332 to XR1/XR2?

Bimmerworld does stock 331 for E9x, F8x, and F8x 2NH front as well as 332 for E9x rear. I definitely wish they made them in more pad sizes - I am planning on trying the 331/332 combo later this year and they make the AP front size and E9x rear size, but seems like if I really like them I'm a bit stuck with the OEM E9x rear and can't get a matching AP rear kit lol.

To answer this though:
5. Is there any difference WRT how easily any of these would share a rotor with OE pads, assuming I drive on them to and from the track (and maybe another day or two before and after) to scrape off the previous transfer layer?

If this is something you are very concerned about, you could try Ferodo DS1.11 for track pads. I run those right now and DS2500 in the rear for track/street, as DS2500 for street. This way, you don't need to re-bed pads since the compatibility is something Ferodo markets. I haven't really had an issue with the 1.11 (only track pad I've tried), it's just seemingly a good bit more expensive than PFC. 1.11 are "usable" on the street in that past your first "oh shit it doesn't work" cold stop, they'll get you stopped, albeit with a fair bit of screeching at low speeds and the knowledge that you're abrading your rotor a fair bit quicker.

I'm curious about the 331/332 for the upcoming season but the last two sets of 11s I got just didn't feel right. I used the 08, then stepped up the 11 a few years ago and was always super happy, until last season. Both sets just felt like garbage. Nothing on the car changed so I don't know if I'm nuts or something changed at PFC.

IamFODI wrote

Appreciate your input as always, M3SQRD.

331/332 is Bimmerworld's strong recommendation as well, it seems. PFC didn't list either of those for my calipers but it does look like they exist!

How would you compare 331/332 to XR1/XR2?

I’d say the 331/332 combo will outperform the XR1/XR2 but the XR1/XR2 won’t be too far behind. The biggest difference is the 331/332 are new compounds whereas the XR1/XR2 have been around for a couple of decades. A new PFC compound will include what they, and BimmerWorld in this case, have learned since their last compound(s) were released. They also have new PFC 82 and 84 compounds. They have the CP9668 PFC 7790 25 mm thick and they have the 7767 20 mm thick but it would need to have its inner radius increased and the pad thickness reduced to 18 mm to create the 7768 pad for the CP9449/9451.

M3SQRD wrote

I’d say the 331/332 combo will outperform the XR1/XR2 but the XR1/XR2 won’t be too far behind. The biggest difference is the 331/332 are new compounds whereas the XR1/XR2 have been around for a couple of decades. A new PFC compound will include what they, and BimmerWorld in this case, have learned since their last compound(s) were released. They also have new PFC 82 and 84 compounds. They have the CP9668 PFC 7790 25 mm thick and they have the 7767 20 mm thick but it would need to have its inner radius increased and the pad thickness reduced to 18 mm to create the 7768 pad for the CP9449/9451.

Is the latter something BW/PFC can do to create CP9449 pads on request or something you order yourself and DIY? Seems like the Bimmerworld CAR4949 Alcon rear BBK is a 7700, which would give it a fair amount of PFC compatibility... unfortunate that they don't have more AP pad shapes.

82/84 seems interesting if it provides additional longevity.

bipp wrote

Is the latter something BW/PFC can do to create CP9449 pads on request or something you order yourself and DIY? Seems like the Bimmerworld CAR4949 Alcon rear BBK is a 7700, which would give it a fair amount of PFC compatibility... unfortunate that they don't have more AP pad shapes.

82/84 seems interesting if it provides additional longevity.

I could see BW asking PFC to offer the 7768 in more compounds if enough Essex/AP Racing owners contacted them. BW isn’t going to stock the number of pads PFC requires before manufacturing pads if there seems to be no interest. PFC makes pads for pretty much all racing calipers. The 7767 and 7768 are used by Radicals so I’m surprised there’s so few offering from PFC.

Agreed. The 82 and 84 (there’s also 80 and 83) could be awesome track pads. If only the 7767 was the 18 mm thick version then it would be easy to make a 7768. This is how Porterfield makes their 7768 equivalent R4/R4S pads.

IamFODI wrote

1. For initial bite, it looks like PFC 11 > PFC 08 > RSL29. Is that correct?

2. When stone cold, do the PFCs work any better than RSL29?

3. I've read that RSL29 can have mediocre pedal feel, especially when worn. True? Are the PFCs better in this department?

4. PFC 11 seems to have higher friction than the others and looks like a highly progressive pad. Is there a risk that it will too easily overwhelm the tires I'll be running, to the point of being a challenge for my noob foot to modulate?

5. Is there any difference WRT how easily any of these would share a rotor with OE pads, assuming I drive on them to and from the track (and maybe another day or two before and after) to scrape off the previous transfer layer?

6. Has anyone used Pagid RSL1? It looks closer to PFC 11 in initial bite and overall friction, with a much wider and flatter friction plateau vs. temp. True?

Absolutely not a fan of the RSL 29 pad on heavy cars and I've moved past endurance pads altogether. My favorite pads currently are CarboTech XP20/24 and Ferodo 3.12.

1. PFC 08 and RSL 29 are endurance compounds. Initial bite is decent and the stopping power doesn't really increase much. PFC 11 is/was a sprint pad with good initial bite and slightly better stopping power as the temperature increases.

2. PFC 11 would work slightly better cold but not really noticeable.

3. Absolutely mediocre. I'd rather be on street pads, especially in a G80 M3. PFC 08 is better and PFC 11 is much better.

4. It shouldn't, just trail off the brakes as you normally would. What might overwhelm the brakes is going over mixed traction surfaces such as tarred seams on the pavement or over sand. In that case, you'll get into the ABS much easier.

5. PFC pads are the best in this regard. I've never noticed an issue when I switched back to street pads although I don't do that anymore and run the track pads year round.

6. No experience with the RSL1 but definitely don't limit yourself to just Pagid pads. If you're getting a good price for PFC or Cobalt Friction, or Ferodo, etc, go for it.

Thanks, Ximian.

Ximian wrote

No experience with the RSL1 but definitely don't limit yourself to just Pagid pads. If you're getting a good price for PFC or Cobalt Friction, or Ferodo, etc, go for it.

At this point, yeah, I've pretty much written off Pagid. Too many reviews criticizing them for one of the most important factors to me (pedal feel). The reason I was tempted to go for them was that ECS Tuning carries them with lifetime replacement. But, for the number of DEs I'll be doing this year, I can afford to spend if it'll help me avoid something I'll dislike.

ECS has started to carry PFC as well, though they don't seem to have the exact pads I want. Maybe I'll ask if they can add them...

IamFODI wrote

Thanks, Ximian.


At this point, yeah, I've pretty much written off Pagid. Too many reviews criticizing them for one of the most important factors to me (pedal feel). The reason I was tempted to go for them was that ECS Tuning carries them with lifetime replacement. But, for the number of DEs I'll be doing this year, I can afford to spend if it'll help me avoid something I'll dislike.

ECS has started to carry PFC as well, though they don't seem to have the exact pads I want. Maybe I'll ask if they can add them...

I’d hope ECS can get additional PFC pad compounds from their distributor or get them directly from PFC. Which PFC compounds does ECS currently offer? For older PFC compounds, I’ve tried their z-rated street, 97, 01, 03, 05, 11, 13, 15 and 39 on five different cars so I should be able to provide feedback on most non-endurance compounds. However, one major problem with recommending race pads is they are subjective when it comes to what pad characteristics/categories we put more weight on (initial bite, modulation, release, pad wear rate, rotor wear rate, etc.). In some cases it’s less subjective when a pad excels in most categories. This is true of newer compounds but there are still trade offs for every compound.

M3SQRD wrote

PFC 11 is being discontinued so I’d recommend trying the PFC 331/332 combo or Cobalt XR1/XR2, or XR1/XR3, combos. You could try the front compound only as long as you are running a less aggressive race pad on the rear.

Am I an idiot if I run 331s in the front and stock pads in the rear? Changing pads with stock calipers is a pain. Assuming these will be loud on the street, so I will have to swap back/forth often-ish. Would rather limit to just the fronts. I’ve heard BimmerWorld helped PFC design these pads (331&332) to work together in unison with BMW’s ABS system…wouldn’t want to disrupt that balance with stock pads in rear.

M3SQRD wrote

I’d hope ECS can get additional PFC pad compounds from their distributor or get them directly from PFC. Which PFC compounds does ECS currently offer?

I'd hope so, too. But I've asked FCP Euro for the same thing multiple times and they've insisted it wasn't possible for them. I did ping ECS tonight and will post back if I hear anything in response.

The only PFC pad I remember seeing on ECS's site when I looked was an 11 for the E9x M rear...

911r wrote

Am I an idiot if I run 331s in the front and stock pads in the rear? Changing pads with stock calipers is a pain. Assuming these will be loud on the street, so I will have to swap back/forth often-ish. Would rather limit to just the fronts. I’ve heard BimmerWorld helped PFC design these pads (331&332) to work together in unison with BMW’s ABS system…wouldn’t want to disrupt that balance with stock pads in rear.

Have you ran stock pads in the rear before? Could get away with it on tracks that aren't so hard on brakes.

I've never had a problem running the same compound front and rear (e.g. PFC11 or XP20 front and rear) so that's what I do.

Ximian wrote

Have you ran stock pads in the rear before? Could get away with it on tracks that aren't so hard on brakes.

I've never had a problem running the same compound front and rear (e.g. PFC11 or XP20 front and rear) so that's what I do.

Same, always ran the same front and back never had any issues. I've been reading a bit that the new thought on F and R specific compounds is basically the initial bite. They're supposed to work opposite as the load of the car moves forward.

I'm not sure how much I buy it but I'm a chronic overthinker and track time is my decompress, shut everything off, and just drive time so I try really hard not to overthink things.

911r wrote

Am I an idiot if I run 331s in the front and stock pads in the rear? Changing pads with stock calipers is a pain. Assuming these will be loud on the street, so I will have to swap back/forth often-ish. Would rather limit to just the fronts. I’ve heard BimmerWorld helped PFC design these pads (331&332) to work together in unison with BMW’s ABS system…wouldn’t want to disrupt that balance with stock pads in rear.

I’d recommend using something more aggressive than oem rear pads. I know it’s not fun swapping pads is floating calipers but I’d run the 332 or at a minimum something like the Ferodo DS2500 or Cobalt XR4. I’d be concerned the stock pads will result in significant non-uniform pad deposits on the rotors.

Inversely, I wonder how the 332 compares to the DS2500 as a street pad, and if you can just leave it in. Iirc, the graph had 332 pretty close to Z-rated in friction curve. I was considering a move to 331/332 and then just swapping the front for Z-rated or DS2500 and leaving the rear in. Probably won't be "dangerous" unless you seriously push the car on the street.

M3SQRD wrote

I could see BW asking PFC to offer the 7768 in more compounds if enough Essex/AP Racing owners contacted them. BW isn’t going to stock the number of pads PFC requires before manufacturing pads if there seems to be no interest. PFC makes pads for pretty much all racing calipers. The 7767 and 7768 are used by Radicals so I’m surprised there’s so few offering from PFC.

Agreed. The 82 and 84 (there’s also 80 and 83) could be awesome track pads. If only the 7767 was the 18 mm thick version then it would be easy to make a 7768. This is how Porterfield makes their 7768 equivalent R4/R4S pads.

As far as this goes, it seems like PFC made pad shapes for racecar applications, and it is a coincidence the BW Alcons share the pad shape?
https://pfc.parts/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/PFC-82-84-compound-pads.pdf

Maybe I should have gone for Alcons instead of APs...

bipp wrote

Inversely, I wonder how the 332 compares to the DS2500 as a street pad, and if you can just leave it in. Iirc, the graph had 332 pretty close to Z-rated in friction curve. I was considering a move to 331/332 and then just swapping the front for Z-rated or DS2500 and leaving the rear in. Probably won't be "dangerous" unless you seriously push the car on the street.

Interesting idea. I agree it doesn't seem unsafe. Though you would be wearing down an expensive track pad instead of a street pad you could get with lifetime replacement. Rear rotors would also wear a lot faster, and those are more annoying to replace than the pads.

Have you tried DS2500 and liked it? FWIW, in my limited experience with it, I've found it to be worse than OE on the street. Worse pedal feel, worse cold bite, no advantage that matters in any remotely sane street driving. If you're considering a street(able) pad to use in front with PFC 332 in the rear, I'm sure you'd be better off with OE (or whatever other street pad you've tried and liked).

IamFODI wrote

Interesting idea. I agree it doesn't seem unsafe. Though you would be wearing down an expensive track pad instead of a street pad you could get with lifetime replacement. Rear rotors would also wear a lot faster, and those are more annoying to replace than the pads.

Have you tried DS2500 and liked it? FWIW, in my limited experience with it, I've found it to be worse than OE on the street. Worse pedal feel, worse cold bite, no advantage that matters in any remotely sane street driving. If you're considering a street(able) pad to use in front with PFC 332 in the rear, I'm sure you'd be better off with OE (or whatever other street pad you've tried and liked).

I don't hate them on the street. Nothing about them is anything to write home about. I only got them as a "street and track" pad before I realized they really didn't cut it for front pads, and now I'm stuck with them for the foreseeable future of street driving - I have another fresh set of OEM rear shape and a CP9668 sized front to run through. They dust a decent bit, squeal on occasion, and like you said pedal feel and cold stops aren't great - though it rarely gets under 50F here so I'm not too bothered over it. I don't really hate them enough that I'm in a rush to replace them though... saying I like them is iffy since like you said, there's no quantifiable benefit on the street and they're not really trackable. They're... fine? They do come with FCP Euro replacements though.

I guess that makes sense that keeping a 332 in there would cause more annoyances down the line but I guess that depends on how much rotor wear you get and how long they last. For example, no one seems to have an issue with keeping a DS2500 for street and my first set of rears still has like 4mm left after 6 track days and 10k miles.

FWIW though - I wonder how useful lifetime replacements on rear street pads really is. I'm guessing most of wear on my rear pads was from track use, so a purely street driven pad should last a few years at least - so I'm not fixated on keeping it.

bipp wrote

I guess that makes sense that keeping a 332 in there would cause more annoyances down the line but I guess that depends on how much rotor wear you get and how long they last. For example, no one seems to have an issue with keeping a DS2500 for street and my first set of rears still has like 4mm left after 6 track days and 10k miles.

PFC 332 being an actual track pad, and DS2500 being a dual-use pad, I'd expect 332 to be much harder on rotors when cold. Can't say for sure though, obviously. If you find out, let us know!