Questions about Pagid RSL29, PFC 08, PFC 11 (and maybe RSL 1)

bipp wrote

Inversely, I wonder how the 332 compares to the DS2500 as a street pad, and if you can just leave it in. Iirc, the graph had 332 pretty close to Z-rated in friction curve. I was considering a move to 331/332 and then just swapping the front for Z-rated or DS2500 and leaving the rear in. Probably won't be "dangerous" unless you seriously push the car on the street.



As far as this goes, it seems like PFC made pad shapes for racecar applications, and it is a coincidence the BW Alcons share the pad shape?
https://pfc.parts/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/PFC-82-84-compound-pads.pdf

Maybe I should have gone for Alcons instead of APs...

Like most race pads you can run them on the street but it’s not ideal because you never reach brake temps on the street (typically around 200 F or less) that gets the race pad into its proper temp range (350-800+ F) and, therefore, into its ablative temp range. Remaining in its abrasive temp range, you’ll rapidly wear you brake rotors. Don’t be deceived by the PFC 332 mu-temp curve. They are nothing like the z-rated compound. The z-rated compound cannot withstand VIR full 1:51:xx to 1:56:xx f82 GTmore and f82GTS GTmore lap times. I doubt the z-rated compound would survive 20 min repeated sub 2:10:xx lap times on the f8x without excessive wear and fade. I know someone who tried this on an e92 M3 with PFC Z31 front and rear brake kits with the z-rated compound (18 mm thick pads, fout pads per caliper) and he could not get below 2:10:xx and had excessive wear rates and fade. I was using the PFC 01 and 11 compounds in the same brake kits and I was easily turning sub 2:07:xx and 2:06:xx, respectively, lap times with minimal wear. He switched to PFC 01s and then he was turning sub 2:07:xx so the > 2:10:xx weren’t due to lack of skill.

The Alcon calipers BW is using are for GT category race cars which, it appears, the PFC 7700 is a commonly used rear race pad similar to how the PFC 7790 is commonly used as a front pad. I’ve asked PFC what’s the minimum number of pads required to manufacture a run of the 7768.332.18.44 pads. The nice thing about Cobalt and Carbotech is they have no issues with manufacturing just one set of custom PFC 7861 and 7863 pads for the F/R Z31/Z31 calipers when they were first released.

I recently switched from DS3000 to Carbotech XP20 and what a night and day difference. They pull up hard. I found DS3000 felt very OEM and average at the track but ok as a street pad.

I wanted to try PFS but find their many many options too confusing and they’re harder to get in Oz.

Whatever option, the lack of front brake cooling in the E92 platform is one of the biggest problems.

MFKN3 wrote

I wanted to try PFS but find their many many options too confusing and they’re harder to get in Oz.

Whatever option, the lack of front brake cooling in the E92 platform is one of the biggest problems.

Do you mean PFC? PFC has a large selection of race compounds because they are used for different types or racing (endurance or sprint), car setup (with/without aero, street tires, r comp tires or race slicks) and temperature tolerance/range. PFC 08 (endurance) and 11 (short and medium distance sprint) are the most readily available for stock calipers. The new 331/332 compounds are for street ABS systems with excellent wear rates. You won’t find the 01 (some stock caliper applications), 12, 13, 15 and 39 compounds available for oem stock calipers. You don’t know what you’re missing if you haven’t tried PFC race compounds. I’ve tried Hawk DTC70 & DTC60, Cobalt XR1 & XR2, Carbotech XP8 thru XP25 and Porterfield R4, and IMO none come close to the overall performance and characteristics of PFC race compounds (I’ve tried all compounds as well as discontinued 03 and 05 compounds and z-rated street compound). I don’t have temperature issues with PFC and AP Racing race calipers with PFC race compounds.

Yep PFC. I’d have to import them from a US supplier.

PFC 11’s I thought were being discontinued, despite seemingly being one of the most popular on here.

I’d be happy to try a set once I get through the XP20. I do short to medium tracks but they are hard on brakes, use r comp, BBK, downforce aero etc. Which PFC compound would you recommend?

Found this on Cobalt's website. Credit: https://cobaltbrakes.com/compounds

bipp wrote

Inversely, I wonder how the 332 compares to the DS2500 as a street pad, and if you can just leave it in. Iirc, the graph had 332 pretty close to Z-rated in friction curve. I was considering a move to 331/332 and then just swapping the front for Z-rated or DS2500 and leaving the rear in. Probably won't be "dangerous" unless you seriously push the car on the street.

Just did a DE on 331/332 and drove them to and from the track.

In terms of feel and response, 331/332 were not too different from any good street pads. They felt fine – not too grabby, and not stupidly weak feeling when cold.

My only reservation would be noise. At least with my stock rear calipers and rotors, they were very loud. But I've also read that they're not super noisy in other applications and/or with proper break-in (which I probably didn't do), so I guess YMMV.

On track, they were perfect for me. Thanks for the recommendation, M3SQRD!

I just noticed ECS no longer offers lifetime replacement on Pagid track pads.

IamFODI wrote

Just did a DE on 331/332 and drove them to and from the track.

In terms of feel and response, 331/332 were not too different from any good street pads. They felt fine – not too grabby, and not stupidly weak feeling when cold.

My only reservation would be noise. At least with my stock rear calipers and rotors, they were very loud. But I've also read that they're not super noisy in other applications and/or with proper break-in (which I probably didn't do), so I guess YMMV.

I did a Track Night with this combo, taking it very easy, and the pads didn't show any wear afterwards. That's a promising sign for real track use! I can't judge how they worked with ABS since my right rear wheel speed sensor went bad on the drive down.

I had the same problem with noise. Each session it took a half lap to warm them up enough not to squeal. The worst part was the last few miles driving my car home. I felt embarrassed by the squeal at each stop light. I drove Carbotech XP12 to and from the track for 5 years and these PFC pads are probably 3 times as loud. Squeal doesn't properly describe the noise. It's a very loud metallic ringing sound as I come to a stop and let off the brakes. My rotors are very old, so I could try a new set. Or just slam on the brakes at every stop.

I hope I can figure it out. I like everything else about them so far. I'll beat on them at the next event.

tjames975 wrote

I did a Track Night with this combo, taking it very easy, and the pads didn't show any wear afterwards. That's a promising sign for real track use! I can't judge how they worked with ABS since my right rear wheel speed sensor went bad on the drive down.

I had the same problem with noise. Each session it took a half lap to warm them up enough not to squeal. The worst part was the last few miles driving my car home. I felt embarrassed by the squeal at each stop light. I drove Carbotech XP12 to and from the track for 5 years and these PFC pads are probably 3 times as loud. Squeal doesn't properly describe the noise. It's a very loud metallic ringing sound as I come to a stop and let off the brakes. My rotors are very old, so I could try a new set. Or just slam on the brakes at every stop.

I hope I can figure it out. I like everything else about them so far. I'll beat on them at the next event.

High metallic content race pads are noisy on the street and it’s hard to keep a sustained temperature above 200 F on the street. I’ve used all of the Carbotech pad compounds, including their old panther and panther plus compounds, and only the 1521 and panther (predecessor to 1521) compounds do not squeal on the street. I’ve used XP12 on three different cars and they all squealed embarrassingly loud on the street. However, I typically only use race pads during a trip to/from a track event and the track event. Race pads significantly increase rotor wear rates because you can never get the pad out of its abrasive braking temperature range. The only time I’ll use race pads on the street is if I’ve developed high pad material deposits on rotors so the abrasive braking behavior on street will remove the pad deposits and then I swap back to street compounds.

M3SQRD wrote

High metallic content race pads are noisy on the street and it’s hard to keep a sustained temperature above 200 F on the street. I’ve used all of the Carbotech pad compounds, including their old panther and panther plus compounds, and only the 1521 and panther (predecessor to 1521) compounds do not squeal on the street. I’ve used XP12 on three different cars and they all squealed embarrassingly loud on the street. However, I typically only use race pads during a trip to/from a track event and the track event. Race pads significantly increase rotor wear rates because you can never get the pad out of its abrasive braking temperature range. The only time I’ll use race pads on the street is if I’ve developed high pad material deposits on rotors so the abrasive braking behavior on street will remove the pad deposits and then I swap back to street compounds.

Yes, same here on all of it. The PFC pads just seemed like they were much, much louder than the Carbotechs. I'll try them again.

I also want to experiment again with Ferodo DS2500. I want to see how much coasting is required to get through an SCCA Track Night event at Sebring without changing pads or street tires. It's for science.

tjames975 wrote

Yes, same here on all of it. The PFC pads just seemed like they were much, much louder than the Carbotechs. I'll try them again.

I also want to experiment again with Ferodo DS2500. I want to see how much coasting is required to get through an SCCA Track Night event at Sebring without changing pads or street tires. It's for science.

I suppose there are certain toleranced part combinations that could minimize the sound dB level of squealing race pads.

LOL DS2500 pads! I can destroy a set of 25 mm-thick front DS2500 pads in one open lapping day However, I’ve found DS2500 pads will not squeal at all on my e46 M3 (AP Racing brake kits) and f82 (AP Racing brake kits) if I continuously brake hard on every stop on the street. It doesn’t have to be threshold braking but what would be considered late braking on the street keeps them quiet.