Track forum general chit chat.

kolosy wrote

Was gonna slap in some pads and send it on Monday. Then saw this. Womp womp. Guess I gotta wait for the new ones.

Hmmm....

My first set of Paragon 380x32 rotor rings made it maybe 15 track days?

Ximian wrote

Hmmm....

My first set of Paragon 380x32 rotor rings made it maybe 15 track days?

At first I didn’t see any cracks that had propagated to a free edge and I was about to type you had one more safe track event left in them. However, upon closer inspection, I did see a free-edge crack. You could probably squeeze one, maybe two, days out of them but it’s not worth the risk.

Ximian wrote

Hmmm....

My first set of Paragon 380x32 rotor rings made it maybe 15 track days?

I gotta do the math, but I’m definitely less than that. Even with a lighter car now. I think it’s still my braking style more than anything else, even though I’m putting up solid times.

Without writing out all the details, I will confirm that the build spec parts are not available from Schirmer directly in full. The kits you can buy online are about 100 parts short (not exaggerating). I’ve been communicating with Tom Schirmer white a bit.

I don’t want to debate whether somebody else could build an equally capable car with different parts or even some of the same parts. I agree that can be done. But I know you can’t build a clone of a Schirmer car that truly matches an authentic version. I am interested in having a Schirmer M3 not some like it.

And also don’t start with the bang for your buck argument. We are drilling holes in our cars and spending money on overpriced carbon titanium and aluminum bits chasing tenths. None of this makes financial sense at any scale lol.

Bimmer Barney wrote

Without writing out all the details, I will confirm that the build spec parts are not available from Schirmer directly in full. The kits you can buy online are about 100 parts short (not exaggerating). I’ve been communicating with Tom Schirmer white a bit.

I don’t want to debate whether somebody else could build an equally capable car with different parts or even some of the same parts. I agree that can be done. But I know you can’t build a clone of a Schirmer car that truly matches an authentic version. I am interested in having a Schirmer M3 not some like it.

And also don’t start with the bang for your buck argument. We are drilling holes in our cars and spending money on overpriced carbon titanium and aluminum bits chasing tenths. None of this makes financial sense at any scale lol.

I wasn’t going to get into the “bang for the buck” aspect of it. I know some of what I enjoy is nuts (double meaning), to say the least. Sometimes you just like what you like.
I’m just curious what is proprietary, and not in a negative way. The details are clouded, is all.

kolosy wrote

I gotta do the math, but I’m definitely less than that. Even with a lighter car now. I think it’s still my braking style more than anything else, even though I’m putting up solid times.

I'm definitely taking it easy on my brakes compared to your RA videos.

I haven't really tried the Girodisc rotor rings with the Ferodo 3.12s but I get the feeling the Girodiscs may be a tiny bit more durable. Either way, both options are great.

Bimmer Barney wrote

Without writing out all the details, I will confirm that the build spec parts are not available from Schirmer directly in full. The kits you can buy online are about 100 parts short (not exaggerating). I’ve been communicating with Tom Schirmer white a bit.

I don’t want to debate whether somebody else could build an equally capable car with different parts or even some of the same parts. I agree that can be done. But I know you can’t build a clone of a Schirmer car that truly matches an authentic version. I am interested in having a Schirmer M3 not some like it.

And also don’t start with the bang for your buck argument. We are drilling holes in our cars and spending money on overpriced carbon titanium and aluminum bits chasing tenths. None of this makes financial sense at any scale lol.

Who said anything about “bang for the buck”? I believe his statement was “it all comes down to budget” which is different from “bang for the buck”

Just ask Track/S about Schirmer built cars compared to non-schirmer cars. Dedicated race and track cars don’t make sense $$$ wise but, in the end, the goal, at least for me, is to still spend the least amount of illogical $$$ per lap time with/without a brand name associated with the car.

Bimmer Barney wrote

Without writing out all the details, I will confirm that the build spec parts are not available from Schirmer directly in full. The kits you can buy online are about 100 parts short (not exaggerating). I’ve been communicating with Tom Schirmer white a bit.

I don’t want to debate whether somebody else could build an equally capable car with different parts or even some of the same parts. I agree that can be done. But I know you can’t build a clone of a Schirmer car that truly matches an authentic version. I am interested in having a Schirmer M3 not some like it.

And also don’t start with the bang for your buck argument. We are drilling holes in our cars and spending money on overpriced carbon titanium and aluminum bits chasing tenths. None of this makes financial sense at any scale lol.

The only thing that will be different is your bank account, with several thousand euros less.

Is it really 2025 and we're still talking about 'Schirmer kinematics' like they've figured out something magical that no one else has, on what is now an almost 20 year old platform?

They do a couple of offset bushings, some subframe/diff raise bushing to help improve the geometry for when you lower the car, and have a good understanding of how to setup these cars (as do many other people btw). It's really nothing ground breaking.

That doesn't take away from that fact that they clearly know how to setup these cars, and build very nice track and race cars. Whether they are worth the money though is entirely subjective...

Fair enough. I don’t know all the details yet either. If I start a build thread hopefully I can share more details there.

Some of you guys are funny. Schirmer is the most reputable and proven build on our platform. That’s why they are legendary.

The subjective part is whether one thinks it’s cool. Anyway, fun talking about it with the community.

Bimmer Barney wrote

Fair enough. I don’t know all the details yet either. If I start a build thread hopefully I can share more details there.

Some of you guys are funny. Schirmer is the most reputable and proven build on our platform. That’s why they are legendary.

The subjective part is whether one thinks it’s cool. Anyway, fun talking about it with the community.

They’re legendary because of YouTube and the obsession for BTG laps as absolute. That’s it. The rest is marketing.

Plenty of US builders can build equally competent if not more capable e92s. Budget is the concern…

If it BTG laps used as the common denominator, then Schirmers proximity and access will always be a competitive advantage as it is for Porsche too.

DRLane wrote

They’re legendary because of YouTube and the obsession for BTG laps as absolute. That’s it. The rest is marketing.

Plenty of US builders can build equally competent if not more capable e92s. Budget is the concern…

If it BTG laps used as the common denominator, then Schirmers proximity and access will always be a competitive advantage as it is for Porsche too.

That said, if it’s what you want. Then you should get it! Where you’ll likely come out ahead, is resale…

bring it down and i'll drill it up for a couple beers.

DRLane wrote

They’re legendary because of YouTube and the obsession for BTG laps as absolute. That’s it. The rest is marketing.

Exactly this, the best times are achieved by drivers who live in the ring and do not stop doing laps all season long.
There is no tracks in Europe where their cars stand out.

Good news everybody!

Sigh. I guess I don't *need* a left AND a right directional rotor. two rights will do...

Bimmer Barney wrote

Definitely nice and we could probably swap!
I’ve definitely considered continuing to build mine but to walk out to the garage and see that I own a true schirmer, get to drive it on track and off, would be a different thing.

Isn’t a real schirmer built car going to cost you north of 200K lol

One thing I can give schirmer is their marketing reached many audiences around the world. Luckily in California, many race derived shops cater to the same customization to even all fdmsb and fia certified fabrication in house. To me, I like the quality and attention to detail stahlus_rennsportzellen puts out on schirmer’s roll cages

omgzirra_exe wrote

Isn’t a real schirmer built car going to cost you north of 200K lol

$ or €? Regardless, it doesn’t make it any more affordable…

Erickuokwa wrote

One thing I can give schirmer is their marketing reached many audiences around the world. Luckily in California, many race derived shops cater to the same customization to even all fdmsb and fia certified fabrication in house. To me, I like the quality and attention to detail stahlus_rennsportzellen puts out on schirmer’s roll cages

Not only in CA. East coast race shops can build race/track cars with the same level of customization and attention to detail as Schirmer. There are shops with custom suspension components (it’s all about Schirmer kinematics ) at least equal to Schirmer who don’t sell their products to non-customers. They have backlogs that keep them busy year-round building cars.

M3SQRD wrote

$ or €? Regardless, it doesn’t make it any more affordable…

Either euro or usd.

I know used schirmer built e9x can be around 80K $, 70K? € but I think those are just the basic schirmer built cars.

The full built ones are like full rotisserie, stroker engine, etc.. so I’d assume that’s close to 200K $? 170K €

You gunna do this? I get mocked for it, but when schirmer does it, it’s cool.

roastbeef wrote

You gunna do this? I get mocked for it, but when schirmer does it, it’s cool.

I've seen a lot of roll cages and the cost is in the details. I prepped and built the roll cage in my E46. I spent WAY more time with the detail stuff. Removing all of the brackets, cutting sheet metal, and wire harness thinning took months. Bending, notching, and welding the cage took less than a week.

Every roll cage I've seen except for 1 leaves useless stuff behind like parking brake cable tubes. Those were a total pain to remove and saves maybe 1lb? Who in their right mind would pay someone 2-3 hours of labor to do that?

Anyone that has owned a car with a roll cage knows once the cage is in, any work on the interior is exponentially more difficult.

If Schirmer goes to that level of detail then I could understand the cost difference. Is it worth it? Not for most people.1